Reconsidering My CCW - Legal Considerations

[ilikegunspdx]

I didn't post this in the legal section, I chose the carry section because I'm curious how many others have a slightly modified weapon for their daily and have thoughts on legal risks and upcoming gun law changes.

Currently, my daily is a Glock 19 that I spent some time working on. Upgraded barrel, optics-ready slide, stipled grip, ZEV trigger and bar etc. I used to use my USPc .45 for carry, but it was a bit too chunky and I wasn't taking it to the range as much, so it got a streamlight and spot in the bedside safe. I had the glock for years in the safe as a backup weapon, the trigger was somewhat gritty and it just 'didn't do it for me', so it gathered dust. Until, that is, I handled a stipled frame and suddenly loved the grip I thought I hated. So that naturally led to going down the modification path and now I genuinely look forward to range time with it, it's the most accurate gun that I own for me, and having 15+1 is really nice.

That said, here is where I am at a crossroads:

1) I didn't touch the trigger springs, just the trigger itself and trigger bar (I love the flat face of the ZEV and it's not gritty anymore), but I've been told this could still be presented to a jury in a trial as being a 'modified trigger' and could potentially cause some serious legal problems. In a clean, justified SD scenario I wouldn't be worried, but it's the possibility of a civil suit by the perp's family etc that could get ugly if they tried to say the weapon was made easier to kill etc.

2) Maybe this is an overblown fear, but when the new high-cap mag ban goes into effect in July in WA, does anyone worry about the same thing as above? I.e. even if you legally owned it prior to the ban, some idiot prosecutor decides to make a big point about you having a "high capacity magazine, which are now illegal by the way" etc. And who's to say they won't modify this law again banning them completely...

I love the .45 cartridge and shoot well with it, when I carried my USP it was always in condition 1, the DA trigger mode is just too long, but again it was a bit bulky for me. So, I'm thinking about switching over to a 1911, but that of course isn't cheap as I wouldn't want an entry level one... I've always loved how they feel, and despite being heavier they are thinner, and I'd rather have more weight but less discomfort moving around.

Curious to know everyone's thoughts on this! Is this thread an excuse to tell my wife I need a 1911? I can't rule that out

I assume you are talking about legal ramifications if you accidentally shoot someone you did not intend to shoot. If you intended to shoot someone in SD it doesn't matter if your trigger is 2.5 lb or 12 lb.

Be sure of your target and what's behind it and also follow the other 3 rules of firearm safety.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Re magazines as I understand it, in WA it is legal to posses, carry, or use a high capacity magazine after the law comes into effect. It will be illegal to buy, sell, or transfer one after the date the law comes into effect but not illegal to posses, carry, or use.

 

[GinDistiller]

I assume you are talking about legal ramifications if you accidentally shoot someone you did not intend to shoot. If you intended to shoot someone in SD it doesn't matter if your trigger is 2.5 lb or 12 lb.

Be sure of your target and what's behind it and also follow the other 3 rules of firearm safety.

I wish that was the case, but as a few others have posted you're never immune to a civil suit and the facts as we know them don't matter, it's all up to how they paint you to a jury.

I once read about a burgler in the UK who cut themselves while breaking into someone's home and successfully sued the homeowner and won for injuries they sustained. We aren't there yet, but the direction isn't comforting..

If I accidentally shoot someone I've got more problems than my aftermarket trigger..

 

[L84Cabo]

This gets brought up a lot...whether making mods to your carry gun will present a problem in the legal aftermath.

Some reputable sources seem to think so. But I don't see many people posting real examples of actual court cases where an otherwise good shoot becomes a bad shoot because of a REASONABLE modification someone made to their carry gun. But maybe these types of things don't make the news and are out there. I'd love to read about them if anyone has any real examples??

My opinion...for whatever that's worth...is that my first and primary concern is to survive the gunfight so that I'll be alive to face whatever comes after that. To that end, I will make whatever REASONABLE modifications I can that will help improve my odds, up to and including REASONABLE trigger work.

And I do mean reasonable. Obviously if you reduce your trigger weight to 2 lbs and then ND into a bad guy, that is probably going to present some legal problems for you.

Beyond this I think that a competent attorney will be able to counter whatever comes up in court...assuming it was a good shoot.

Example:

District Attorney: Mr Cabo I see you did some trigger work to your carry gun. Clearly that means you are a blood thirsty killer who was just looking for an opportunity to shoot someone.

Me: I improved the performance of my trigger to help improve the accuracy of the gun to ensure that I was able to hit what I was aiming at, and not send rounds downrange where they could have injured and innocent bystander. My trigger weight is consistent and well within the specs of what comes from the factory from numerous gun Mfgs., such as A, B, C. Many of these guns are also carried by law enforcement.

You are right to be concerned about this. If the Rittenhouse trial showed us anything it is that absolutely anything is possible. That case should have never have gone to trial and yet it did with a very corrupt DA trying to do anything he could to convict Kyle.

So yea, a corrupt or aggressive DA looking to make a name for himself, or a money grubbing civil lawyer may very well try to make an issue of the mods you've made...or the posts that you've made on various gun forums...etc. You should assume they'll go after anything and everything, truth be damned.

At the end of the day it's going to come down to how YOU feel about the risks of doing this vs. the benefits derived from the mod and your ability to counter this in court. Only YOU can decide what you're comfortable with.

Good luck...and may the odds be ever in your favor!

 

[solv3nt]

Be sure of your target and what's behind it and also follow the other 3 rules of firearm safety.

Two in the chest one in the head?









I kid, I kid!

 

[boattail]

I have posted this before (just cannot remember where)....my everyday carry guns are modified to be custom fitting and functioning guns for me. The gun is a tool, a tool that I can now use much better than in its stock configuration. I modify to draw easier, function cleaner, and be more accurate. If someone wants to harm me that tool needs to work right the first time. I want to hit what I aim at and not some unlucky innocent. I carry to stop a threat against me or my wife and I want the best tool in my hands.

You don't enter a foot race in shoes that don't fit you....why would anyone shoot a gun that does not fit them? I have hand made grips, smoothed and blended the exterior corners and sharp edges, shimmed the hammer, lightened the main spring, chamfered the chamber mouths for speed loaders, tightened up the crane retainer, added material on ejector rods, and done an overall improvement on fasteners that shake loose. This gives me guns I can trust to not only work but fit me the best they can.

The guns job in a self defense situation is to stop the threat....it's my job to make sure I only use it to do that one job and nothing more. If my gun does not fit me or work well for my needs I can toss my CCW in the trash. I'm not packing a gun for defense that I cannot shoot well.

For the record I have five carry guns, three revolvers, and two semi autos. All of the revolvers are modified and none of the semi's have modifications. My most modified gun gets carried 95% of the time......because it works the best for me.

 

[solv3nt]

For the record I have five carry guns, three revolvers, and two semi autos.

I thought I was overkill with a spare magazine; five?!?!

 

[sobo]

I thought I was overkill with a spare magazine; five?!?!

Not all at once, ya ninny!

 

[solv3nt]

Not all at once, ya ninny!

Where's the fun in that? I've got two hands.... And pockets!

 

[BlindedByScience]

Massad Ayoob has mentioned ammo in one of his books. I worry that a magazine full of "RIP" rounds or something equally silly could potentially be used as an issue. I recommend and carry ammo known to be used widely by LEO's...Speer Gold Dots for me, but there are lots of choices.

Ive upgraded the sights, a KKM barrel with threads, and added a TLR2 to my G17. My other carry piece is a S&W 642 that has been to Cylinder and Slide for their full package. If I'm ever asked, I'll answer honestly the modifications were done to improve accuracy, reliability, and safety.

 

[boattail]

I thought I was overkill with a spare magazine; five?!?!

Yes, five.......they each have a purpose.

SP101 357 magnum 2 1/4"......carried the most because of its size, it hides the best on me with two speed loaders.

Colt King Cobra 357 magnum 3"......it's the backup for the Ruger but it is a tiny bit bigger and I can only hide one speed loader. It has a couple functions that are slower than the SP101 so it is a backup gun to the SP101.

Ruger Blackhawk 45 convertible 4 5/8".....This is my woods gun carried on my left hip and shot left handed calvary draw when carried with my SP101, It goes on the right hip if I only have one gun on me. I carry 325g bear loads in it.

Sig 1911 45 acp full size.....carried when I want more rounds on board and it conceals very well but is not good when I am driving my pony cart as the barrel digs into the seat forcing the gun into my side. I use it most when heading into the populated areas where finding trouble is easier.

S+W 659 9mm....Too big to conceal on me unless under a cover shirt so it is for when I am driving a lot and it hides under a towel next to me for a quick access gun. I also will use it in the winter when driving my pony as I can attach a lanyard so I don't lose it if things get sporty. This is also the highest capacity gun I have at 15 rounds. It does double duty as a house gun as well.

I have to renew this December and I am seriously considering dropping the two semi's off the permit as I no longer travel to the cities like I used to and the fact that I cannot conceal the 9mm worth a crap. I regularly pack the Blackhawk with the SP101 and still want the Colt for a back up so those three will stay on. Come December I will make the call to drop them or not. It will speed up my qualifications when I shoot as well.

 

[sobo]

I have to renew this December and I am seriously considering dropping the two semi's off the permit

This is concerning... Where you live, do you have to have individual firearms listed on a permit in order to legally carry them?

 

[Alexx1401]

This is concerning... Where you live, do you have to have individual firearms listed on a permit in order to legally carry them?

Some states do have that restriction. That the gun(s) you carry have to be listed on the permit. Since we of course know this will somehow keep the criminals from carrying of course

 

[solv3nt]

This is concerning... Where you live, do you have to have individual firearms listed on a permit in order to legally carry them?

Sounds like the Russia tropics, aka kommiefornia.

 

[Alexx1401]

Sounds like the Russia tropics, aka kommiefornia.

I have heard some of the eastern folks have it like that too, or at least used to. I am sure it kept the criminals from having a gun of course

 

[nammac]

I personally limit carry gun changes to sights and grips, if even that…. More likely to be a straight out of the box gun, loaded with factory rounds.

Makes for much less to be drawn into question should I ever need to defend myself with a firearm. Practice, practice, practice with your preferred carry gun and load until proficiency is achieved.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it…

 

[nammac]

This is concerning... Where you live, do you have to have individual firearms listed on a permit in order to legally carry them?

In Rhode Island for instance (a may issue state), they identify the caliber you qualified with, your permitted to carry up to that caliber weapon. Or at least they did last century…

 

[DunRanull]

One Californian use a pistol to successfully defend his life with.
It was a 12 shot 10mm loaded with handloads and the grips said "Punisher" on them so they found him guilty of premeditated murder.







Lulz, not really

That's a totally Cowleefonia-believable statement. Glad it was just a joke, tho.

 

[DunRanull]

Yes , however.....

It was a "case of one"...so not much to go on here....
The deputy , could have been having a "bad night"...

In any event...not knowing how to operate / clear / check a lever action rifle...
While being a deputy in a rural area...What is wrong with you..?
Andy

I certainly hope that your experience doesnt speak to the level of firearms knowledge/training in your area!

 

[DunRanull]

I wish that was the case, but as a few others have posted you're never immune to a civil suit and the facts as we know them don't matter, it's all up to how they paint you to a jury.

I once read about a burgler in the UK who cut themselves while breaking into someone's home and successfully sued the homeowner and won for injuries they sustained. We aren't there yet, but the direction isn't comforting..

If I accidentally shoot someone I've got more problems than my aftermarket trigger..

An "injured (wannabe) burglar" scenario played out in my hometown some decades ago. The hapless perp tripped over something outside the shop and broke his leg iirc. Anyhow he sued AND COLLECTED from the store-owner or his insurance... for negligence...