Proper way to handle LEO while OC

[fd15k]

The guy sounded more nervous than smug to me. Him being a law student shouldn't even factor into this conversation. Just my $.02.

~MT

Actually him being a law student means we will get another pair of boots in the court room working against LCAV and similar groups.

 

[JackThompson]

It's not officer's responsibility to educate himself. It is department's responsibility to ensure the officers are suited for the job.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse unless you have qualified immunity

Yes and no.

If you just want to skate by in life then do the minimum your job requires (This is where the job should require more)

In my opinion, Law Enforcement is an exceptional job. It's a higher than average responsibility, and as such requires you to take it much more seriously as an individual.

 

[dmancornell]

Actually the kid should consider himself lucky. He could have run up against this psycho: How Facebook Helped a Small Town Fight Back Against a Crooked Cop - Reason.com

 

[fd15k]

Yes and no.

If you just want to skate by in life then do the minimum your job requires (This is where the job should require more)

In my opinion, Law Enforcement is an exceptional job. It's a higher than average responsibility, and as such requires you to take it much more seriously as an individual.

So first let's produce people who are unsuited for the job, give them badges and guns, and throw them on the street. Then let's hope they will be good sports and educate themselves about RIGHT and WRONG See any problems with this picture ?

 

[MrsThompson]

I'm pretty sure that's not what he said.

Laws are ever changing. LEOs should be educating themselves all the time to keep up, AND their employers should be proving easy access to that knowledge. I've never been an LEO so I have no idea what their process is, but that's what makes sense to me.

 

[fd15k]

I'm pretty sure that's not what he said.

Laws are ever changing. LEOs should be educating themselves all the time to keep up, AND their employers should be proving easy access to that knowledge. I've never been an LEO so I have no idea what their process is, but that's what makes sense to me.

Of course. Departments provide training, issue memos, etc. I had an interesting discussion with some well respected people from LAPD and Los Angeles District Attorney's office once. LA DA issued a memo a few years ago stating that Open Carry (unloaded) is legal in California and in Los Angeles. In my presence deputy DA mentioned that memo, and LAPD guys were like "oh, we don't know who those guys are, we better prone them first..." That was of course a couple of years ago, they banned open carrying of handguns in California not so long ago...

 

[slimmer13]

well respected people from LAPD and Los Angeles District Attorney's office ...

LOL

 

[Kevatc]

I've never met him. But every single attorney (without exception) I have dealt with has been. Even the ones I've had working FOR me. I stand by my opinion.

I had John Kilcullen (father of Officer Kilcullen who was killed a little over a year ago during a traffic stop in Eugene) as an attorney and he was kind, easy going, humorous, fair, and responsive to my questions and concerns. He was an LEO before he became an attorney.

 

[JackThompson]

@Fd15k,

Agreed. Someone also mentioned that the 911 dispatch should have known the law, verified that there was no actual crime being committed and educated the caller and ended it there.

I hope the people that go over the call logs for that day catch the error and address it.

 

[Rik]

I notice the police car in the background is Portland, so I assume this happened within the PDX city limits. And last I heard the communist controlled community of Portland has a 'No Open Carry' ordinance. I know & the police officer knows that the Oregon CHL permit supercedes that. My thought is that the subject's open carry breaks the PDX ordinance giving the officer probable cause to stop & question him. It would then up to the subject to produce his ID AND a current CHL to prove he has the right to both open & concealed carry anywhere in the state of Oregon, minus a few Gov/Fed buildings, ect. Any statements to a 911 caller have no legal standing to an officer on scene and he would need to verify any information supplied in that manner.
If this is the case then he is lucky he did not get cuffed & stuffed until they could remove his wallet from his person and find the CHL themselves. This said I hope I'm not the next CHL holder this officer talks to. And for the 'subject' in this video, you did our community no good in this. Next time maybe it's a well deserved concrete kiss for you.

 

[JackThompson]

Interesting point Rik. Still leaves a feeling that the officer on the scene was less educated on the matter than he should be either way.

And I agree that the subject of this thread is unnecessarily adversarial.

 

[fd15k]

I notice the police car in the background is Portland, so I assume this happened within the PDX city limits. And last I heard the communist controlled community of Portland has a 'No Open Carry' ordinance. I know & the police officer knows that the Oregon CHL permit supercedes that. My thought is that the subject's open carry breaks the PDX ordinance giving the officer probable cause to stop & question him. It would then up to the subject to produce his ID AND a current CHL to prove he has the right to both open & concealed carry anywhere in the state of Oregon, minus a few Gov/Fed buildings, ect. Any statements to a 911 caller have no legal standing to an officer on scene and he would need to verify any information supplied in that manner.
If this is the case then he is lucky he did not get cuffed & stuffed until they could remove his wallet from his person and find the CHL themselves. This said I hope I'm not the next CHL holder this officer talks to. And for the 'subject' in this video, you did our community no good in this. Next time maybe it's a well deserved concrete kiss for you.

That was Portland, Maine. Supposedly another strongly liberal city.

 

[Rik]

Portland, Maine... that makes a difference and withdraw most of my previous comments. What I could quickly find is that Maine is open carry and my quick google search did not bring up any restrictions within Portland, Maine. So the guy was correct in what he did and said. His attitude and etc is debatable and was obviously not out to make friends but make a point.

 

[slingshot1943]

First thing? Shut off the video camera. Maybe it would end up that one chance in a thousand where I get roughed up/abused, but I'd be willing to take that chance.

Two? I would communicate the law to the officer in as a respectful a tone as possible indicating my understanding of it. If he chose to disagree still, I would politely ask him to contact his shift lieutenant or sergeant to come mediate what would appear to be a dispute in understanding of the law.

This guy made a show of it to make a point. In the short term, I'm sure it felt really good to him. In the long term, he's being a dbag that that officer and all in his department will attach to anyone OC'ing. And they'll bear the brunt of his transgressions.

BS

 

[fd15k]

Portland, Maine... that makes a difference and withdraw most of my previous comments. What I could quickly find is that Maine is open carry and my quick google search did not bring up any restrictions within Portland, Maine. So the guy was correct in what he did and said. His attitude and etc is debatable and was obviously not out to make friends but make a point.

About his attitude... the guy was essentially detained, his property was seized, all without PC. His civil rights (4A) were violated at least in 2 different counts here, and possibly more if you add 2A and 1A. What would be your attitude given all this ?

 

[Rik]

Maybe it's just my easy going way... But if this happened to me here in Oregon. I would be polite, offer up my ID and CHL to start with, I would ask to retain my weapon, but if that bothered him I would surrender it for the duration of our conversation. Because in the end I know that is all it is 'a conversation'. I am in the right and 99.999% of the time nothing will come of it. If in the mean time I can ed-u-ma-cate him on the finer points of the law I will. But the whole "you seized my property you big hooligan" attitude would never have started with me. I would have started with more respect for somone that probably has more sphincter shrinking moments in a week than I've had in the last 2 decades.
But like I said, I'm easy going.

 

[fd15k]

Maybe it's just my easy going way... But if this happened to me here in Oregon. I would be polite, offer up my ID and CHL to start with, I would ask to retain my weapon, but if that bothered him I would surrender it for the duration of our conversation. Because in the end I know that is all it is 'a conversation'. I am in the right and 99.999% of the time nothing will come of it. If in the mean time I can ed-u-ma-cate him on the finer points of the law I will. But the whole "you seized my property you big hooligan" attitude would never have started with me. I would have started with more respect for somone that probably has more sphincter shrinking moments in a week than I've had in the last 2 decades.
But like I said, I'm easy going.

That's cool. PM me your address, I will stop by your place today and drink all of your beer In all seriousness, you need to remind yourself of the society we live in. We have border patrol checks tens of miles from the actual borders. We have DHS goons sneaking around where they don't belong (File:USBP-SRT-New Orleans.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). We have TSA groping and undressing people at the airports, minus the cavity searches. Drones are flying above our heads. List goes on... don't surrender any more of your freedoms just for the sake of being nice.

 

[Rik]

I totally get it. The freedom you fail to protect today is the one you won't have tomorrow! My reference to the thread was personal, I carry concealed for the tactical advantage and open carry loses some of that and invites stupid people to make stupider calls to the police. And the society you mention also puts those police in too many way uglier situations than that video on a daily basis. So I give them the benifit of the doubt and it has always been returned to me. I could also argue that giving my weapon over for a short duration, or allowing him to take it without a fight is a choice not a surrender. But that is a big gray area that could be argued all day. This is a top down problem, beating up a cop with your superior knowledge of case law is a waste of time when we have a socialist cartel running the whole show. Woops better stop before I get the boot for political posting
PS the beer is ice cold and by Saturday it will all be gone at the poker party!

 

[Kevatc]

About his attitude... the guy was essentially detained, his property was seized, all without PC. His civil rights (4A) were violated at least in 2 different counts here, and possibly more if you add 2A and 1A. What would be your attitude given all this ?

And this is why the officer was in the wrong and could've handled this situation better.

Maybe it's just my easy going way... But if this happened to me here in Oregon. I would be polite, offer up my ID and CHL to start with, I would ask to retain my weapon, but if that bothered him I would surrender it for the duration of our conversation. Because in the end I know that is all it is 'a conversation'. I am in the right and 99.999% of the time nothing will come of it. If in the mean time I can ed-u-ma-cate him on the finer points of the law I will. But the whole "you seized my property you big hooligan" attitude would never have started with me. I would have started with more respect for somone that probably has more sphincter shrinking moments in a week than I've had in the last 2 decades.
But like I said, I'm easy going.

I agree with you. I have no problem with others who might decide to take on the LEO's like the guy in the video did. However, I also think the guy made this situation more difficult than it had to be. Like you, I would've ID'd myself so that the LEO would be able to check that I am not a bad guy. He did his job and I would've been able to go on about my business.

In all honesty, how many folks here would be able to cite all that case law???? Even though you don't have to, what's wrong with trying to diffuse the situation by cooperating a little bit?

I really don't get the "us against them" attitude. Its almost like there are some folks who think LEO's are just pawns of the Brady crowd. I'm not saying there aren't bad cops, or cops who make bad judgement calls but they have a difficult job. It's not like a LEO gets a call for a "man with a gun" and can just drive by and think "oh it's just a dude/dudette open carrying".

Personally, I think each one of these encounters like in the video does more disservice to the open carry issue than if people would just cooperate and ask the officer to relate to the 911 caller that what the guy was doing was completely legal.

 

[fd15k]

It's not like a LEO gets a call for a "man with a gun" and can just drive by and think "oh it's just a dude/dudette open carrying".

Have you been to AZ ? You know what happens when a LEO sees somebody carrying there ? He keeps on chewing that doughnut
But seriously, I have heard 911 dispatcher calls that went like this (even in California, imagine that!) :

- 911, what's your emergency ?
- OMG! HE GOT A GUN! AT STARBUCKS!
- Mam, what is he doing ? Is he pointing the gun at anybody ?
- Nothing, he is drinking a coffee...
- Mam, that is not illegal...

911 Open Carry Call to Police - YouTube