Portal axles pros/cons, why/why not?

[Ura-Ki]

I'm looking at options... maybe its best to run shortened/narrowed GM 14 bolts or Dana 60 axles and the Axletech portal units even if they're massively heavy....... because the Axletech units have 4 gears in each piece for maintaining standard rotation.... if it still ends up needing to modify, weld, etc the axle parts in order to make them work with the portals and the sizes I'm wanting to go with...
On the other hand.... maybe I can live with banging the differential pumpkins everytime I find a rock taller than the ground clearance

Or live with taking out a loan and just acquiring a Pinz... how much maintenance do they need compared to "modern" passenger vehicles? I know the AM General Humvees need a LOT of maintenance

Why not a set of LMTV axles? They are only 4 inches less clearence then the Mogs, and they can take a lot more power and abuse then the Mogs! You can also run the MRAP suspension and have better ride and weight capabilities and more articulation. These axles are a hell of a lot cheaper to buy, and there are locking diff options and gear sets that are pretty much drop in!

 

[CamoDeafie]

Looks like its gonna be relatively more affordable to acquire a Pinzgauer than it would be to acquire all the parts needed and equipment to build the rig I have in mind

So a HUGE con would be that the portal axles are heavy, very expensive if not getting Mog or similar axles, and requires a lot of mods/work to fit a CJ or XJ Jeep...
I don't see where I can get Volvo C303 axles or similar in the US, but I think those would be the right compactness to tuck under a CJ3 or CJ5 frame? Seen a couple pics of them underneath a Land Rover 90 series trooper

 

[edzz]

On the other hand.... maybe I can live with banging the differential pumpkins everytime I find a rock taller than the ground clearance

Or live with taking out a loan and just acquiring a Pinz... how much maintenance do they need compared to "modern" passenger vehicles? I know the AM General Humvees need a LOT of maintenance

Maintenance of a Pinz is about the same as any other capable military vehicle, oil changes, carb sync, brake adjust (no auto adjusters), etc. I was lucky, cost for maintenance over five years was less than my Jeep TJ cost me in one year. That said while the Pinz is a very robust vehicle if a major component needs to be replaced it can be BIG money. Also if you are not capable of doing all your own repairs / maintenance and have a warm dry place to work you may need deep pockets.

I would not recommend anyone take out a loan for an offroad vehicle, it's hard justifying the payments if it's sitting in the driveway dead after an off road mishap. Same goes for any serious off roading with your daily driver.

If you want to learn the ups and downs of Pinzgauers and such look here. Most any question you may have has likely already been asked so... use the search function.
THE PORTAL HUB - Pinzgauers, Haflingers, Volvo 303s and more! - Index page

 

[CamoDeafie]

I do some minor mechanic work on my Kia Sportage.. have replaced the brake assemblies...serviced the rear differential (pretty simple with the Kia) in the past I've done radiator replacement, head gaskets and valve cover gaskets on GM v6s and 4 cyls as well as changing power steering pumps and hoses; but these are VERY minor work in my opinion . Was not involved with the changing over of the whole engine, though i should have been
Portal axles seem to be a whole nother level of work for me.

 

[Ura-Ki]

There are a bunch of Glendawagons comming available as they get sold as surplus and imported here, as long as it's a 4 cyl. turbo diesel, there awesomeness and parts can be had at any MBZ dealer and most Napa parts stores!
I might be getting one my self, there a really good deal!

 

[CamoDeafie]

There are a bunch of Glendawagons comming available as they get sold as surplus and imported here, as long as it's a 4 cyl. turbo diesel, there awesomeness and parts can be had at any MBZ dealer and most Napa parts stores!
I might be getting one my self, there a really good deal!

Talking abt vehicles like these?

USMC IFAV version

NATO model

Another NATO version (Netherlands?)

Or luxo civie conversion?
Theres a shop in Colorado who refurbishes the imported G-wagens, as long as they are 25 years old; are legal to sell... but I think they mentioned that a minimally refurbished/restored mil soft top version would set a person back about 12 grand or 14 grand? Still way less than what the brand new civilian versions sell for from MBZ dealers

 

[Ura-Ki]

Talking abt vehicles like these?
View attachment 527871
USMC IFAV version
View attachment 527874
NATO model
View attachment 527875
Another NATO version (Netherlands?)
View attachment 527873
Or luxo civie conversion?
Theres a shop in Colorado who refurbishes the imported G-wagens, as long as they are 25 years old; are legal to sell... but I think they mentioned that a minimally refurbished/restored mil soft top version would set a person back about 12 grand or 14 grand? Still way less than what the brand new civilian versions sell for from MBZ dealers

Yup, those are it! Legendary Mercedes Benz build quality and a proven drive train with Millions of parts available stateside! They can be upgraded to any thing your budget allows, and will last for ever! They can even interchange with certain Volvo and Rover parts making them a very versatile rig! Think German Jeep!

 

[308]

Not really on target for the OP, but the UTV market is big on portals as well.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Now that gives me some ideas @308
If I could acquire a M151A2 with the 4 wheel independent drive... maybe someone could rig up a way to attach the UTV portals to the M151 half shafts.

On a more serious note, probably easier to try on a RAV4 1st gen small vehicle, as these are far more common to find?

Or a similar light, small SUV with 4 wheel independent drivetrains.... what does that get?

 

[Ura-Ki]

You Could use H1 Alfa Hummer portals on all sorts of Independent suspension rigs, as long as it was done both front and rear! Other then making sure your drive train turns the right direction, or you could use the Hummers transfer case and call it good! That's kind of what my 42 has, full H1 Suspension system and divorced transfer case behind a Cummins BT 3.9 and Auto trans!

 

[CamoDeafie]

You Could use H1 Alfa Hummer portals on all sorts of Independent suspension rigs, as long as it was done both front and rear! Other then making sure your drive train turns the right direction, or you could use the Hummers transfer case and call it good! That's kind of what my 42 has, full H1 Suspension system and divorced transfer case behind a Cummins BT 3.9 and Auto trans!

I somehow think the H1 stuff would be WAY huge and heavy on the relatively tiny M151 Independent suspension system I mean, 16.5" wheels at the smallest.

Interesting question though, wouldn't they need to fit the hub ends bolt patterns in order to be useful, other than extensively modding and welding and machining??

I figure the M151 uses the extremely common 5x5.5" bolt pattern, seeing as its a Ford....

I have quite a few years or so to wait before I can try and get these imported into the US 1997(or 1998 civilian) to 2003 Kia Retona/KM 420/KM 131 jeeps; uses the same stuff as a 1st gen 2 door Sportage, just a military body; and some mil specific equipment...Peru uses them, might be able to get them imported from Peru, if could find a way to acquire them from surplus (IF they even have surplus vehicle sales ) down there, and ship up via offshore shipping to avoid the problem spots going North...
I think the rule is if a vehicle is 25 years or older, it's exempt, unless we're talking California which has a real stupid rule?


I know, probably much cheaper to get a Jeep, Bronco, Blazer, Tahoe/Yukon, and then build around those....

 

[edzz]

Scott always has an interesting selection of trucks. His site will also give you an idea of what axles and other parts go for.
Current Inventory
404 Crated Components

 

[Sandaholic]

Cons: MPG will go to hell. Top speed will probably be severely impacted. Parts availability, more parts = more problems. Much cheaper to put a lift on and fix the geometry, a good gear guy can rotate an axle pretty easily.

Are you thinking of a dedicated off-road truck? I doubt you would like a daily driver with portal axles. I have driven 1 Unimog... it topped out at a bit over 50mph, foot to the floor to do 55 on level ground... nothing I would want to drive on the highway.

To me the biggest advantage is getting the lowest center of gravity with the highest ground clearance.

This is actually wrong. You would be raising your center of gravity. Not by much to be sure, but raising it all the same. If you raise your axle 6" further above the ground your center of gravity will move up slightly as well. Higher ground clearance yes, but not the lowest center of gravity.

 

[CamoDeafie]

This is actually wrong. You would be raising your center of gravity. Not by much to be sure, but raising it all the same. If you raise your axle 6" further above the ground your center of gravity will move up slightly as well. Higher ground clearance yes, but not the lowest center of gravity.

That depends... the weight of the units and the larger wheels and tires needed.... I mean, lets put it in context.
CJ-3 or 5 Jeep; Dana 30s-44s, 15" wheels with normalish tires... replace the axles with the bigger, heavier Dana 60s, and then add the 75lb Axletech units at each corner.. these require a minimum of 16.5" wheel, (H1 size), or 17" (more common), and often that means much bigger tires... I don't know of "smaller" A/T or M/T tires for 17" wheels than 33"s, maybe 35"s are more common? even swap Dana 33s/44s for Unimog axles... you still got a lot more weight below the frame..

35" 16.5 MT tires, 78 lbs each...
35" 15" MT tires; 74 lbs each...
37" 16.5 MT 80something...

But lets be real.. you're adding 75 lbs extra on each corner; that works out to over 150lbs per corner... basically an extra 600lbs on top of the 140-260lb Dana 60 axles... (semi to full float rears and fronts)... that means just about 1,000 lbs below the frame if using a 140lb rear full size Dana 60 and a 260lb full float front with knuckles...
And that aint accounting for weight of wheels jaysus I see why I'd need 1 ton axles with portals if I'm gonna need real heavy tires

 

[Sandaholic]

That depends... the weight of the units and the larger wheels and tires needed.... I mean, lets put it in context.
CJ-3 or 5 Jeep; Dana 30s-44s, 15" wheels with normalish tires... replace the axles with the bigger, heavier Dana 60s, and then add the 75lb Axletech units at each corner.. these require a minimum of 16.5" wheel, (H1 size), or 17" (more common), and often that means much bigger tires... I don't know of "smaller" A/T or M/T tires for 17" wheels than 33"s, maybe 35"s are more common? even swap Dana 33s/44s for Unimog axles... you still got a lot more weight below the frame..

35" 16.5 MT tires, 78 lbs each...
35" 15" MT tires; 74 lbs each...
37" 16.5 MT 80something...

But lets be real.. you're adding 75 lbs extra on each corner; that works out to over 150lbs per corner... basically an extra 600lbs on top of the 140-260lb Dana 60 axles... (semi to full float rears and fronts)... that means just about 1,000 lbs below the frame if using a 140lb rear full size Dana 60 and a 260lb full float front with knuckles...
And that aint accounting for weight of wheels jaysus I see why I'd need 1 ton axles with portals if I'm gonna need real heavy tires

Does it? Take 2 identical vehicles except one has more ground clearance due to portals. You have raised the axles up. The axles are not weightless. Therefore you have raised the center of gravity. Even if it is only a small amount.

I'm nitpicking here, but my point is valid.

I think the confusion or misconception comes into play if we talk about amount of lift. Speaking in terms of what it would take to clear a certain tire. No matter how you slice it portals are raising the axle 6" and at the same time providing a 6" lift. That lift raises the center of gravity. Portals give you more ground clearance for a comparable amount of any traditional lift yes. Lowest center of gravity no. I'd say a lower center of gravity is possible with portals, but not a definite by any stretch of the imagination.

This is a hard subject to do an apples to apples comparison on.......

Say we have the same rigs. You have portals I don't. You run a 42" bogger. I go with a 54" bogger. We would essentially have the same amount of ground clearance. But you paid an ungodly sum for portals and I paid an extra $800 total for my bigger tires.

If we want to talk about how to achieve a lower center of gravity then the conversation always goes to the least amount of lift. Always. So I say skip portals and figure out how to stuff huge tires under your rig. Don't make me bust out some MS paint up in here

I can see how this could easily devolve into a 'which is better topic'. Which it looks like I am guilty of just that with my kiwi's to strawberries comparison.

 

[orygun]

I deal with this kind of issue every day. Just because you can add something to your vehicle (car, bike, truck, etc.), doesn't mean you should. I see people let their mind wander to "well, I can do this..." and then end up with a complicated hash job that's a pain to work on and not as reliable as before.
Portal axles are super cool. The process of lifting the axles above wheel centerline is a great way to increase ground clearance, and the amount of lift provided will allow taller tires, for sure.
But the expense and extra complexity, not to mention the possibility of inferior quality, aftermarket parts within, just doesn't pencil out. Also, especially if stepping up from a 30 or 44 to a 60, weigh some parts. The added weight alone may be a factor. I changed my full sized truck from a 44 front/60 rear to a 60 front/70 rear. They added at least 400 lbs more unsprung weight and they don't have portals! (they do have huge brakes and strong internal components) If the truck is to be used hard, they are worth the weight. If not, they will just add cost.
For years I have been a proponent of large diameter tires with minimal lift. Much of that has to do with the way a lifted, large tire rig handles, but also considerations of driveline and steering angles. Tire diameter is what gets us ground clearance, the lift is merely the way to clear those tires.
If I wanted a rig with portals, I'd buy a Unimog or something that came with them. Other than that I would jack the truck enough to fit the tires I wanted and then would spend a little time squaring away those angles the OP is (rightfully) concerned about. Unless the lift goes over 4", there's not likely much of an issue, anyway.
Past that, get good tires and learn how to drive around, or on top of those ruts.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Thanks all.
The Steyr Daimler Haflinger vehicle is practically the smallest vehicle with actual portal hubs... similar size class to the UTVs I think? Next up in size, the Volvo C303 vehivle and Pinzgauer... then ya got the Unimogs...

Did some looking up of the Unimog axles... they are VERY heavy

So for a small lightweight rig, it looks like a small conventional lift maybe only way around tucking larger tires without going stupid tall... although there is still the matter of wanting ground clearance so as not to bash the differentials until someone can come out with decent portal hubs that dont cost as much as another vehicle and doesnt weight as much as half a vehicle.... a regular small lift and bigger tires maybe only real way to go with a compact off road rig. By compact, I mean Cj3/CJ5 size class as opposed to larger Wrangler/Cherokee/Tahoe sizes

 

[Mark W.]

Hmmm I should look at the M151s... not sure how pricey they get... but I do know some M38s can be had for relatively low prices, and being Jeeps... they can take CJ parts easily... right? Hey theres an idea if I had a shop or at least access to one... either weld up a new, fully boxed ladder frame for a CJ3, and attach Toyota Land Defender axles with portals that can be found.. and then stick large-ish 16"×8 army truck wheels and tires on it... put a M38 tub on it, with the arctic hard top......
Or weld up attachments for the 4x4 pinzgauer suspension/drivetrain, maybe better? Again, if shop space, materials, and loads of cash

I don't think 1 ton+ axles and extremely wide spaced army tires look right on a small CJ3/M38 vehicle.. IMO. Probably a beast in rock crawling competitions though

M151's are extremely rare since almost none of them were surplused they were cut up and scrapped. SO be prepared to spend a lot of money for what you would get. An M-38 is basically a slightly modified CJ-3A stock would still run the 60HP 134L head (read flat head) Dana 25 and Dana 44 rear axle 19 spline tapered. If you stiffen the frame on a Willys you will loose some of the flex that allows them to preform off road. If you raise up a vehicle with a 48" tread like a 80" wheel base Willys be prepared for some real exciting times while cornering on the road. If you raise the Willys you will need to widen the tread (distance side to side center of tire to center of tire) Big tires will require a change in the steering the stock rube goldberg Ross steering can't control larger tires so now you go to a Saginaw power steering and your using engine power to go to the steering pump not the axles.

Unless you plan on crawling over rocks or maybe logs a stock height Willys will go an amazing amount of places. You should see some of the videos the guys on the CJ-2A page post of their trips to MOAB and the Rubican trail.

I am currently in the assembly stage at the end of almost 10 years of working on building my 48 Willys into a rig suited to tow a 1200lb trailer on long trips and into the outback for adventures. I bought the Jeep (complete but not running) for $2.00 I have a little over 15K in it so far and about another 2K to go before it and the aluminum hard top is finished. I have done all but machine work myself.

My engine


My chassis



My tub painted



Rollbar

 

[Sandaholic]

What about a 90's FJ80? You might be able to find an unmolested one with a little searching. Or one that you can get a good history on.

Bah just find a TJ Wrangler. Doesn't matter which engine. I had an '01 5speed with the 2.5l 4 banger. 31x10.5 tires and that little thing was awesome. I just wound out the rpm's when necessary and it scooted along fine. It was inexpensive because everyone wants a 4.0l. Amazing little rig that is great offroad with zero mods. You want to mod it, the world is your oyster.......

 

[CamoDeafie]

I was looking at Suzuki Samurai/Geo Tracker, 4x4 Kia Sportages, (1995-2002) and similar small SUVs..... not sure about the FJ80, aren't those closer in size to the 80s S10 Blazers?
I had a chance to get this 80s Isuzu Trooper long ago for $500 (way back in what, 2007ish?) Didn't get it because at that time I was not confident in driving a stick or 4x4..... it had a carbureted 2.8L GM v6 (same as came in 1980s S10 Blazer/S15 Jimmy/Isuzu Hombre line).... so I would have swapped the top end (heads/intake) with a set from the EFI 3400 (largest 60 degree v6 at the time that's still bolt-on to the 2.8 iron block)