Portal axles pros/cons, why/why not?

[Ura-Ki]

For the size and off road capabilities, NOTHING beats a Land Rover, NOTHING! I would Pick up a good running Discovery series 1 ( not a series II) strip the electronics off the engine and swap over to a 4 barrel carb and manifold and headders, and cal it done! Stock, they have awesome axles, many with lockers, and the transfer case is also top shelf! They also have a very good suspension system that allows for incredible off road performance, STOCK! There are also many aftermarket options to really improve on what you already have, a 2 to 3 inch lift and steel wheels to allow for a proper off road tire, and you have an unbeatable rig! Folks turn their noses up at Rover, sukz to be them, having no idea just how good they are, and the Rover V8 is actually an improved American design that makes great power and is solid and reliable. The "Hot" set up is to swap it all out and install a Mercedes Benz 5 Cyl Turbo Diesel from one of the millions of them still running around, use the stock MBZ trans and advance adapters transfer case coupler and you have even more goodness!

 

[Ura-Ki]

 

[CamoDeafie]

Land Rover Series 1 Discovery....what years would those be?? I would love to have the 1950s-1970s Land Rover Defender 90s and 110s..... but dang their asking prices a little high for lil ol me.... Again, I'd just get a M38, CJ3A or CJ5 project lol the M38, because of the military use.... HEck I'd be happy with starting with a 2wd DJ-5 mail jeep just for the hard top, and give it 4x4 CJ-5 running gear

 

[Ura-Ki]

I believe the series 1 discos were made up to 1998! You can fnd good running "Projects" all over the place, most are cheap, but still good! Most folks give up on them when they get a gizzilion miles on them and the parts seem expensive, yet will go and spend 5 times as much tricking out a newer Jeep, and have less then the Rover!
Makes it a great deal for us who know what it what!
My series 2 got awesome mileage on the highway, but all the electronics were a pain, it was also a killer rig off road with lockers front and rear and center, and it rode like a nice expensive car! All I did was put steel wheels on it and 33 inch BFG mud tires and it was unstoppable! Series 1s are basically the same rig with out all the electrical crap!

 

[MikeInOr]

This is actually wrong. You would be raising your center of gravity. Not by much to be sure, but raising it all the same. If you raise your axle 6" further above the ground your center of gravity will move up slightly as well. Higher ground clearance yes, but not the lowest center of gravity.

Yes, you will raise your center of gravity with portal axles...BUT you will be raising it a LOT less than you would to achieve the same ground clearance with much bigger tires and a conventional suspension / body lift. Portals will give the most ground clearance for the least raise in center of gravity of any mod that I am familular with.

 

[CamoDeafie]

I think the DJ5 Postal came with Dana 44 rear axle already.. add a transfer case to the torqueflite 727 trans and if its the AMC 6 cyl, should be good enough with a CJ5 front axle? Would that be a decent, quick conversion..? I do know the DJ5 have slightly wider spring locations, but otherwise very similar to CJ5.... I'd be OK w RHD lol. Definitely would need to trim the Postal doors so that they dont interfere with larger tires.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Yes, you will raise your center of gravity with portal axles...BUT you will be raising it a LOT less than you would to achieve the same ground clearance with much bigger tires and a conventional suspension / body lift. Portals will give the most ground clearance for the least raise in center of gravity of any mod that I am familular with.

This is the most accurate description of things. Any weight above the axle centerline will have an effect on the center of gravity, and like was pointed out, portals gain clearance with out adding much hight! All else being equal, the change would be minimal. Lower center of gravity rigs like the CJ do well because they are light and nimble and have reasonable flex in the frame and suspensions. They can be improved, but that comes at a cost. Other rigs can do well if they are kept light, or they have enough width to counter the hight. It used to be the Broncos and Blazers and others in that size range were the very best for off roading, they had the size, width, and ground clearance to be extremely good off road, to a point! Like every thing else, the more extreme you go, the more complicated and expensive things get, and less capable they actually become!
One stand out from that era was the old Jeep Wagoneer full size, those had just about every thing you could ever want in a off road rig, and with basic mods, were awesome rigs that could take you all over the place, and they had the best ride of any!

 

[CamoDeafie]

Lower center of gravity rigs like the CJ do well because they are light and nimble and have reasonable flex in the frame and suspensions. They can be improved, but that comes at a cost.

They get away with getting most of the weight down low due to not having a hard top, doors, lots of glass... BUT the 50s-70s Land Rover 90s/110s have all that and theyre still dang good, from what I can see...

 

[CamoDeafie]

Postal jeep

Is it me or does it look like I'd need to repair the floorpan and replace body mounts??? looks like the body is collapsing at the firewall?

 

[CamoDeafie]

@Ura-Ki 1996 Land Rover Discovery SD *Manual Trans* 4x4 V8
This seems a decent price for a Land Rover.. the year.. would that make it a Series 1?

 

[Ura-Ki]

They get away with getting most of the weight down low due to not having a hard top, doors, lots of glass... BUT the 50s-70s Land Rover 90s/110s have all that and theyre still dang good, from what I can see...

The old Land Rivers do well only because they have good running gear, and an light weight alloy body. The suck just about every where else, go drive A Defender 90 and report back here with pictures of how cramped you were and a close up of the dash where you punched it every time you shifted gears and bloodied your knuckles, or the goose eggs on your noggin from bouncing around and hitting every thing inside but the lottery. But they sure look cool, untill they don't! The land Crusiers were not much better, except for the Chevy Truck drive train built under licence from G.M.!

 

[Ura-Ki]

@Ura-Ki 1996 Land Rover Discovery SD *Manual Trans* 4x4 V8
This seems a decent price for a Land Rover.. the year.. would that make it a Series 1?

Yup, thay would be an awesome rig, and it's got the best drive train you could ask for, about as bomb proof as yoyr going to find. Pro tip, the series 1 are super easy to spot, they have the small tail lights mounted below the belt line, vs the series 2 thay has the big wrap around tail lights above the belt line!

Another pro tip, pretty much all Rover drive train and suspension parts from all trucks can interchange between trucks, so you have parts availability and interchangeability! And thay also includes engine parts from the Rover car line up if you wanted to up grade the engine!
Rover are the Britt equivalent to the small block Chevy, and 60's and 70's trucks!

 

[CamoDeafie]

Isnt that similar to the problems of the CJ2 and very similar super small vehicles like the 70s-80s Suzuki Jimny?
For those who maybe dont know... theyre basically Japanese Jeeps sized for the average Japanese (in a word, TINY).

 

[CamoDeafie]

So it seems.... portal axles, cool if vehicle comes with them, and a huge, maybe unnecessary investment to go under a far lighter weight rig, unless the rig is heavily modified and practically built for the weight and such of axles, portal hubs and tires to go with it...

At least until a company can come out with a way to make the UTV portals easy to put onto small Jeeps? I'm gonna need to do some serious planning for this

 

[CamoDeafie]

Was watching a few videos of the Super ATV reduction gearbox/portal hubs on the Polaris buggies... noticed that the buggies are roughly similar in overall size to the old CJ3 Jeeps.. perhaps a good crazy fabrication project would be to build a racier version of the M151 using a CJ3 or M38 tub; modern, maybe UTV/Buggy suspension components; and the Polaris ATV running gear mated to a decent small diesel engine....? I mean... fully indpendent 4x4 suspension, with these small portals, and 34s-35s tires... of course this might dictate a full ground up fabrication and build.. might be easier to just build it like a buggy, and attach body panels to it that looks like a jeep... some sketching of the concept coming right up!

Edit. Hmm. Or just build it like a CJ3 with the tub and such, but have 6 point cage tied to frame, and weld new mount points for the buggy suspension out of 1/2"-3/4" steel plates?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Some more update...
Found out that the Soviet Russian UAZ 469 series came wit their interpretation of portal hubs; a stupidly simple looking system of a large ring gear with teeth on the inside, on the wheel side; and a spur gear on the axle stub ends... reportedly the stock configuration has a reduction ratio of approx 3 to 1 ; far too slow to be useable on highway speeds, HOWEVER; the axle assemblies are light enough to be put underneath a Suzuki Jimney as well as the UAZ jeeps which roughly are the same size as a CJ3A, and similarly configured (4 corner leaf springs, solid axles, 4 cyl engine).... there is an aftermarket company producing the ring and spur gears with an improved ratio for highway usage.. this got me thinking... I know to get custom housings machined and new axle stubs machined to accept spur gears, it would cost a silly amount of money for just one set... but here is what I am thinking;
Suppose a company wants to make slight lift portal kits (the UAZ stuff only raise axle clearance 2.75-3" or so from wheel centerline); for small SUVs and maybe UTVs like the CJ3-5 Jeeps, Mahindra Roxor, 1st gen Kia Sportage/Retona/KM131-420 Jeep (possiblg larger international market for these two, especially the military one ); Toyotas, Suzuki Samurai/Jimney/Tracker/Sidekick....
Maybe instead of needing Dana 60 sized 1 ton heavy weight axles and similarly heavy stuff like Unimogs and H1 equipment, these could use UAZ ring gears in new bolt on custom housings and with new spur gears attached to what the vehicles come with, other than completely fitting the UAZ axles underneath these vehicles? I am figuring that perhaps there would be a relative market for these things... especially for small light off road rigs?
The aftermarket gears seem affordable, and the Russian complete axles seems to be pretty cheap, maybe a good route to sticking 30" tires underneath a CJ3B tub without needing much in the way of lift kits (stick UAZ axles under there, maybe 1" lift shackles on leaf springs, and engineer the driveshaft length to fit for best geometry?)