National Pistol Brace Rule Compliance - How to

[Yarome]

You are basing that on one very inflammatory attorney's opinion. Can we agree on that? To my knowledge the ATF has never turned down the transfer of a title 1 firearm to a trust then onward to SBR status. Can we also agree on that? You are of the opinion that a 4473 applies to trusts . Thats nice but I have seen no case law to back that up, unless you have something to back that up?
I'll go as far as to say that if you submit a title one firearm as trust property for conversion to SBR to the ATF even if you live in OR or WA that the ATF WILL approve it. I have not seen anything to suggest otherwise other than one crackpot attorney's opinion. Its not the same thing as filing for a SBR in a state that does not allow SBR's. Not by a longshot.

Nope. Not even in the slightest. I know from my own experience speaking to attorneys in the know on my own personal long standing trusts and on the trust in which I have been the long standing successor trustee (going on decades). I don't take one man's word for anything... not even when it comes to "the law according to wired".

I also do not agree that the alphabets are accepting them without proper proof of legal transfer. It's yet to be seen/proven one way or the other this early on. You no more know it as fact that they are than anyone knows that they aren't. It's pure speculation and I have never claimed that they won't. Simply that there is some gray area between the "text" of the laws and what may or may not be allowed.

Outside of the rule compliance issues... people have been transferring title I's to trusts trying to use the business exception for quite awhile now. One strategy being employed to protect firearms from confiscation through red flag laws. Some believe it'll hold up under scrutiny, but as of yet... and even after direct inquiry on that specific issue... no one has been able to show me any case where it has even been challenged... let alone if any case law has been established, yet.

What I "know"? I "know" that if the alphabets ultimately require proof of a legal firearm transfer to a trust entity in a state that requires a 4473... I, nor anyone that I know or have heard of... will be able to provide it with full certainty. As noted, and as illustrated through the example case... that's a "nope!". Full stop.


***Restating the obvious though.... as far as this compliance thread goes... it's an entirely MOOT point. That ship has sailed and posting the video link was purely informational for those that are still asking the question, "is it too late to add my firearm to a trust and apply for a stamp under trust ownership?" As noted, and as illustrated through the example case... that's a "nope!". Full stop.

 

[Yarome]

Nothing about being allowed to transfer a NFA item to a NFA gun trust without doing a 4473.

Federally you can. An individual that owns an NFA item can transfer it to a gun trust, but not with a 4473. You would need to use the federal form 4 (and pay the fees).

In the case of a braced pistol... you would first apply for the tax stamp as an individual. Once it's approved, then you may transfer your now legally registered/stamped NFA item to your gun trust using form 4.

 

[Yarome]

...one cannot transfer a firearm in Oregon without doing a BG check at a FFL or at a Gun show thanks to SB941, the only exceptions I could find were for family, "temporary" transfers (shooting ranges for example), or to sell through FFLs (consignment). The only thing relating to "trusts" are those for deceased persons through wills, again, family.

Nothing about being allowed to transfer a NFA item to a NFA gun trust without doing a 4473.

Re-reading... if you meant any firearm transfer, other than what is allowed under those exceptions (family, etc), then yeah. You're right. OR firearm laws require a 4473 for any and all legal transfers of ownership. That includes to legally recognized entities as well.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Re-reading... if you meant any firearm transfer, other than what is allowed under those exceptions (family, etc), then yeah. You're right. OR firearm laws require a 4473 for any and all legal transfers of ownership. That includes to legally recognized entities as well.

Yeah that's what I meant, like the hypothetical situation of transferring a "pistol braced firearm" to a NFA trust prior to Jan 13th/ 31st.. it's all moot anyhow; one would still have to do the NFA Form 4 transfer for such a firearm right now unless they want to transfer the pistol without the brace then again.. "constructive intent"?

 

[CamoDeafie]

6 weeks since I submitted on Jan 20th. Anyone gotten approvals/disapproval/denied this long after? Wonder if I should just get a foam pistol buffer tube and then store the carbine tube and brace stuff somewhere else, just to be on safe side?

Edit I realize it's only "30" business days since I submitted; and that theres still about 60 business days (6-9 more weeks)... and there's those lawsuits pending....

Edit 2, on the Eforms site, my status is still "submitted/processing"

 

[wired]

6 weeks since I submitted on Jan 20th. Anyone gotten approvals/disapproval/denied this long after? Wonder if I should just get a foam pistol buffer tube and then store the carbine tube and brace stuff somewhere else, just to be on safe side?

Edit I realize it's only "30" business days since I submitted; and that theres still about 60 business days (6-9 more weeks)... and there's those lawsuits pending....

Edit 2, on the Eforms site, my status is still "submitted/processing"

Mine still hasn't been approved from the 13th . I ca roll out of bed and make myself a post sample machine gun but I can't put a stock on my "pistol" . Hahaha

 

[Yarome]

6 weeks since I submitted on Jan 20th. Anyone gotten approvals/disapproval/denied this long after? Wonder if I should just get a foam pistol buffer tube and then store the carbine tube and brace stuff somewhere else, just to be on safe side?

Edit I realize it's only "30" business days since I submitted; and that theres still about 60 business days (6-9 more weeks)... and there's those lawsuits pending....

Edit 2, on the Eforms site, my status is still "submitted/processing"

The "safe side" would be totally dismantling it or not owning any parts that "could" possibly be assembled into any firearm.... however.... there is nothing illegal or actionable until the 120 day amnesty has expired and having a verified application submission is supposed to guarantee that fact.

IOW, you're just fine doing nothing and keeping it as is.

 

[CamoDeafie]

I plan on getting an A2 stock for the 16" carbine, but that would mean the M4 tube/stock assembly could be construed as "constructive intent", or the A2 stock assembly if. I don't put it on the 16" M4 style carbine. I do have a storage unit in which I could put the M4 Carbine stock assembly and also the carbine tube and Thordsens Customs tube cover/cheek rest and the 3d printed brace all in so that they're separate from the "unregistered SBR lower".... but we'll see.

 

[Yarome]

I plan on getting an A2 stock for the 16" carbine, but that would mean the M4 tube/stock assembly could be construed as "constructive intent", or the A2 stock assembly if. I don't put it on the 16" M4 style carbine. I do have a storage unit in which I could put the M4 Carbine stock assembly and also the carbine tube and Thordsens Customs tube cover/cheek rest and the 3d printed brace all in so that they're separate from the "unregistered SBR lower".... but we'll see.

If you wanna read "constructive intent" that way... it's up to you, but the alphabet doesn't consider mere possession as "constructive intent".

Playing the "safe side" game... stored in a completely seperate structure works. So does not buying one at all, yet.

No stock until your stamp is approved is highly debateable, but if that's your personal choice... erring on the side of caution... that's perfectly valid, too.

 

[wired]

If you wanna read "constructive intent" that way... it's up to you, but the alphabet doesn't consider mere possession as "constructive intent".

Playing the "safe side" game... stored in a completely seperate structure works. So does not buying one at all, yet.

No stock until your stamp is approved is highly debateable, but if that's your personal choice... erring on the side of caution... that's perfectly valid, too.

It's only debatable if you want to put the stock on there and ignore the ruling

 

[Yarome]

It's only debatable if you want to put the stock on there and ignore the ruling

That's "not" what the ruling says... that I have seen or that anyone has been able to present so far. The only mention of it is in a question response and does not address the question, "can I put a stock on my braced SBR before my application is approved". That subject has already come up a couple times and no one has presented any statement from the alphabet stating that you can not. Only assumption and opinions.

What we "know". When you are applying for permission to construct an SBR you must have approval before it can actually be constructed. That included the stock. I agree!

What else we "know".... a braced pistol application is... per the alphabets rule... for an already fully constructed SBR. We also know that the alphabet has stated that there is no distinction between a brace and a stock. They are one and the same... a "stock".

So... you already own an SBR, with a "stock" in the eyes of the alphabet. That makes it clearly debateable... by their own rule... if it's actually illegal or not for your SBR to have an actual "stock stock" on it before your application is approved.

I do agree that the answer given ("Yes") to "after my SBR application is approved can I put a stock on it?" could be assumed to exlude putting a stock on before the application is approved, but it is not factually stated and the actual final rule definitions and provisions argue to the contrary. There is no distinction made about what you have on the end of your already fully constructed SBR. A brace or a stock... you have a "stock" on it.

When meeting with my attorney and asking about the response to that question.... he said that it "could" be loosely implied by assumption to include that a stock may not be installed "prior" to approval either, but the language of the response, legally, does not prohibit that activity and would be easily argued in court.... using the plain text of the rule itself.

To each their own, but opinions and assumed meanings don't make it a "rule"... especially when there are rules that seemingly contradict those assumptions.

It can't be an "SBR" now... illegal and punishable... that is actually a "braced pistol" that doesn't turn into an "SBR" until later on approval of the application.


*I'll end with the caveat, again, though that there may actually be a difinitive rule I haven't seen and no one has been able to present yet. If there is.... I stand corrected.

I'm also not encouraging anyone to put a stock on. It's obviously the safer play is to wait. Just trying to present facts from "opinions" and folks can decide what they're comfortable with. Internet "my opinion constitutes law" myths abound!

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Not sure why you guys spending so much time on stock stuff.

1) Amnesty app appears to take about 45-60 days from what we can tell so far.
2) ATF said in training it's ok to put stock, vertical grip etc on after approval.
3) They said don't keep stuff in the same drawer.
4) They said keep your application letter as proof you are covered for having the brace on there until you have approval.

What is the point of testing/arguing every little detail, possibility, etc.? Just keep things simple. Just wait for approval to do things you are unsure about.

 

[CamoDeafie]

The main problem is that I want an A2 stock on the 16" rifle but that means I will also have the M4 stock assembly available that could be argued as "constructive intent" if it's in the same area as the braced pistol

 

[Yarome]

Not sure why you guys spending so much time on stock stuff.

1) Amnesty app appears to take about 45-60 days from what we can tell so far.
2) ATF said in training it's ok to put stock, vertical grip etc on after approval.
3) They said don't keep stuff in the same drawer.
4) They said keep your application letter as proof you are covered for having the brace on there until you have approval.

What is the point of testing/arguing every little detail, possibility, etc.? Just keep things simple. Just wait for approval to do things you are unsure about.

That'll do! It's just that the question arises, "can I put a stock on it now?" (application submitted).

For me, it's just a pet peeve when people misrepresent their opinions as factual "law". The internet is so full of misinformation accepted as fact... let's not feed the beast!

 

[ilikegunspdx]

The main problem is that I want an A2 stock on the 16" rifle but that means I will also have the M4 stock assembly available that could be argued as "constructive intent" if it's in the same area as the braced pistol

It may help to listen to these segments from the atf training. Then keep it simple and don't overthink it would be my suggestion.

Re what is or is not constructive possession, I found a video of the first training on 1/31 and it is discussed at the 22:55 mark, also 26:19, also 36:35(ish), also 42:00 (best example imo)

 

[Yarome]

The main problem is that I want an A2 stock on the 16" rifle but that means I will also have the M4 stock assembly available that could be argued as "constructive intent" if it's in the same area as the braced pistol

Likely not though. The alphabet addressed that and even gave examples. Owning it isn't an issue or illegal in any way... unless there is reasonable demonstration of intent. IE., a firearm that can accept it in the same drawer with the stock... or... range bag, case or other, etc. Another example was a single firearm capable of accepting the stock in the trunk of your vehicle and the stock is also present.

They also gave an example of when it is not. IE., You own several firearms and have a box of misc. firearms parts off to the side that might contain a brace or stock.

 

[JedB]

I figured I'd put this information here.

I have NFA items, previously under my Trust. (SBRs form 1s, and Suppressor form 4s).

For the Pistol Brace --> SBR conversions, I've filed as an individual
I filed 2x items yesterday (March 5, 2023)

I'll update as I get notifications (good/bad/otherwise) to this thread to provide some information on 'wait times.'

Keeping both items in current configuration. I do have the required parts to revert them to "Pistols" should that be needed, or out of a case of
"I'd prefer to be on the safe side."

 

[CamoDeafie]

Submitted 1/20; still no update. Have approximately 10-12 weeks left if 90 business days from submission. If 90 calendar days, then 45 days left or about 7 weeks or so

 

[wired]

90 days. You guys slay me.

I assume you aren't talking about the BGC portion. That's nearly always instant.

 

[titsonritz]

90 days. You guys slay me.

I assume you aren't talking about the BGC portion. That's nearly always instant.

Not here in Oregon, an "instant" BGC is about 90 days.