Philisophical question

[Blitzkrieg]

Something rational, such as when any business loses money whether to employee theft, shoplifting, spoilage, or bad debts, it has to be made up somewhere.

Now I'm unsubscribing from this thread because I'm not getting anywhere, even though my wife is the one who is authorized to forgive debts and write them off as charity, and deals with this stuff daily, and we're in it up to our eyeballs.

I tried.

98% of the time I do not unsuscribe but just ignore the boobs who cannot logically debate. But that is just me, a short pudgy pup

 

[Father of four]

98% of the time I do not unsuscribe but just ignore the boobs who cannot logically debate. But that is just me, a short pudgy pup

Hmmm....I probably get ignored quiet often then. O'well...I try.

Howard

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Hmmm....I probably get ignored quiet often then. O'well...I try.

Howard

We are often if not almost always on the same page. If we agreed on everything we would be 'bots

 

[Father of four]

I was just saying not all of us are as intelligent as we would like to be even though we try. Even us less then desirables should be heard. Have a great day BTW.

Howard

 

[Kevatc]

It doesn't have to be perfect - most people don't require heart surgeries. But it has to be out-of-pocket affordable.

Bingo. But it isn't. And the system shouldn't have to totally breakdown in order for it to become affordable. However, the way things are trending now health care will become the domain of only the wealthy.

Regardless of what anyone believes in terms of health care being a privilege or a right one thing is certain: it is a necessity. How it is paid for shouldn't come down to a matter of who can pay and who can't. As an adult if you develop something like cancer (me) health care isn't on my "wish list" it's on my "I want to live list". Have kids? Stuff happens with kids especially if they are in sports type activities. Break an ankle, tear up a knee, dislocate a shoulder, sustain a concussion, develop an appendicitis. Health care is a necessity. If you or your insurance isn't paying for it then everyone else is. Agree or not but our health care is already socialized but docs and facilities that provide care are having to write off uncompensated care at huge rates. In so far as capitalism and health care goes it ain't working.

I get it. The requirement for car insurance and health insurance are two different things. The necessity for gun liability insurance is spurious at best. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Unfortunately, one of the (if not THE biggest) influences on the cost of health care is the cost to providers for malpractice insurance, and malpractice providers' insistence on the multitude of tests, imaging etc. prior to care being provided.

Insurance companies know this.
They KNOW that the higher they drive the costs of care, the more individual's coverage will be required to pay it. They have driven those costs beyond the realm of most to pay out of pocket for services. I have been told by someone in a position to know, that this is by design.
The cost of MpI has skyrocketed in the last 30 years.

If you want to see healthcare costs come down, insist that laws prevent this monopoly. They broke up ma Bell, make them break up this top-down, monopoly-driven price structure influence.

It would be relatively easy. Just insist that any InsCo that provides malpractice insurance to care facilities and practitioners, be forbidden to provide personal healthcare coverage, and vice-versa.

Problem solved. They will be competing against each other to keep costs down, and fighting each other in court when one or the other steps over the line.
When the current admin, and the left leaning majority took on the health care issue, I fully expected their reputation for anti big biz to bring this issue to the fore.

Alas, they let me down once again, and not only sided with the InsCos, they strengthened the InsCos' position. It's almost like they were in the pockets of the InsCos,...
Whodathunkit eh?

 

[fd15k]

And the system shouldn't have to totally breakdown in order for it to become affordable. However, the way things are trending now health care will become the domain of only the wealthy.

Technically we have a base system in place, it's called VA. And we have created a classful society by maintaining such services. My take on the issue is that if we cut our enormous military spending (Ron Paul style) we could actually expand it to provide services to the rest of the nation. There also could be a nice feedback going on - less military spending, less wars, less veterans to require medical services

Whenever this example is brought up, there are two main groups of people who reject it. First group says that one should join the military to seek benefits from a system like VA. But it's a silly argument, since Equal Protection does not allow for "terms and conditions". I guess challenging the whole thing in court would help (or was there such challenge before I am not aware of ?). Second group says that quality of services at VA is unsatisfactory, and veterans are seeking help in private hospitals. Well, like I said - I don't need a heart surgery (yet), and I will take any medical service than no service at all.

 

[mcathcart]

Bingo. But it isn't. And the system shouldn't have to totally breakdown in order for it to become affordable. However, the way things are trending now health care will become the domain of only the wealthy.

Regardless of what anyone believes in terms of health care being a privilege or a right one thing is certain: it is a necessity. How it is paid for shouldn't come down to a matter of who can pay and who can't. As an adult if you develop something like cancer (me) health care isn't on my "wish list" it's on my "I want to live list". Have kids? Stuff happens with kids especially if they are in sports type activities. Break an ankle, tear up a knee, dislocate a shoulder, sustain a concussion, develop an appendicitis. Health care is a necessity.
If you or your insurance isn't paying for it then everyone else (should)is.

Agree or not but our health care is already socialized but docs and facilities that provide care are having to write off uncompensated care at huge rates6%. In so far as capitalism and health care goes it ain't working.

I get it. The requirement for car insurance and health insurance are two different things. The necessity for gun liability insurance is spurious at best. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

fixed your post

 

[mortre]

Technically we have a base system in place, it's called VA. And we have created a classful society by maintaining such services.

I am in the VA system, trust me, that is not what you want. You'll get better through the ER under the current system. I carry my own health insurance so I can get decent healthcare. 1 VA appointment a year so that I can take them copies of my medical care for the year, because if you don't they have started reducing ratings.

Here is an example that I went through. VA prescribed me zoloft and propanalol for a service connected anxiety issue. While it worked for the anxiety, it had some nasty side effects, including a complete loss of libido. The VA refused to try a different set of meds, saying those meds couldn't cause that. They wanted to prescribe ED meds and up the zoloft. Keep in mind also, VA "doctors" aren't even doctors. And they are not PA's either, most are nurse practitioners.

So I went to my PCP, he confirmed that those side effects were common with those meds and put me on a different medication. Anxiety under control, and the libido is back.

The only thing gov sponsored health care will do is drive the cost of real health care so high only the politicians will be able to afford it. All the while the free stuff will be misdiagnosing and mistreating those not rich enough to afford the good stuff. There is your classful society.

 

[chariot13]

I'm not interested in anyone's political perspective on this issue and I'd really like to have this thread not get closed because it became political. I am interested in your philosophical perspective as it relates to the following:

What is the difference between requiring a person who operates a vehicle (in essence exercising a priviledge) to have a minimum amount of insurance and requiring a person to have health insurance? Should a gun owner have to carry liability insurance similar to the minimum requirements for vehicle owners?

I wouldnt want to drive without having insurance but with that said I believe mandated insurance of any kind is an abuse of power which allows the insurance companies the 'right' to make money. Nothing more.

 

[moose]

I'm ok with letting people opt out of health care coverage but only if the law is changed to allow heath care providers to refuse life saving treating someone doesnt have the ability to pay.

If you want to take a risk and gamble not having it, then you should be aware taking such risks could cost you your life.

Right now, its a backdoor private tax as my insurance premiums have to pay for an uninsured person's claim of entitlement.

 

[fd15k]

You'll get better through the ER under the current system.

I went to ER once. I had some feverish condition, and I suspected some big problems due to coming back from a foreign trip where
I've encountered some bugs So I went to ER, stated my suspicions, they ran a blood test and I was out of there in 20 minutes
(but not fast enough to avoid a parking ticket). They found nothing wrong with me, but wrote me a prescription just in case.
The bill was $1200, breaking into charges for physician service and the lab. I had insurance, but my company has just
switched providers, and the company stated that they would only cover half of the bill since I haven't met my "annual deductible"
yet. Couple of weeks later I have received another $300 bill, from the hospital that time. Insurance company stated that they can't
charge me for that, and they won't be paying that bill. I tried sorting it out, but I just got bounced between the hospital and
the insurance, until I started getting threatening letters from the hospital, and just paid the thing out of pocket.

End result:
20 minutes in ER
$600 paid by insurance
$900 out of pocket
$40 parking ticket



Oh, and I forgot to mention. I didn't see a "real" doctor during that visit either.

 

[mortre]

But it was treated correctly, so I would say that's better than what you get from the VA.

 

[fd15k]

But it was treated correctly, so I would say that's better than what you get from the VA.

"You were raped, but at least you weren't killed"

 

[Kevatc]

I wouldnt want to drive without having insurance but with that said I believe mandated insurance of any kind is an abuse of power which allows the insurance companies the 'right' to make money. Nothing more.

That just it! If you don't want to drive ... in essence not utilize a privilege then you aren't required to have auto insurance. Is living life a right or a privilege? You can't live life without having a need for health care at some point. So you can take the libertarian perspective and say that you are on your own and have to pay it all out of your own pocket (totally unrealistic ... I had a serious issue that over the course of 5 months exceeded $175,000.00) or we could have a system where a person doesn't have to go bankrupt just because they aren't fortunate enough to have insurance.

Right now we have socialized medicine in America and it is called the VA. But it is only socialized for a certain group of folks.

I went to ER once. I had some feverish condition, and I suspected some big problems due to coming back from a foreign trip where
I've encountered some bugs So I went to ER, stated my suspicions, they ran a blood test and I was out of there in 20 minutes
(but not fast enough to avoid a parking ticket). They found nothing wrong with me, but wrote me a prescription just in case.
The bill was $1200, breaking into charges for physician service and the lab. I had insurance, but my company has just
switched providers, and the company stated that they would only cover half of the bill since I haven't met my "annual deductible"
yet. Couple of weeks later I have received another $300 bill, from the hospital that time. Insurance company stated that they can't
charge me for that, and they won't be paying that bill. I tried sorting it out, but I just got bounced between the hospital and
the insurance, until I started getting threatening letters from the hospital, and just paid the thing out of pocket.

End result:
20 minutes in ER
$600 paid by insurance
$900 out of pocket
$40 parking ticket



Oh, and I forgot to mention. I didn't see a "real" doctor during that visit either.

Not to nit pick but ...... ER's are for EMERGENCIES. I am assuming you were very feverish, had other dramatic or severe constitutional symptoms such as uncontrollable squirts, shortness of breath, low blood pressure, etc that justified that 20 minute ER visit. A 20 minute ER visit is as likely as me winning the Powerball and I never play it.

Your anecdote illustrates the need for fixing our health care system before it completely falls apart. Consumers of health insurance and health care are constantly having to fight for one while cajoling the other.

As for providers .... physician assistants and nurse practioners are being leaned on very heavily and very unfairly in my opinion. The provider facility still gets to bill full price but the PA's and NP's certainly don't get paid like a full on MD/DO.

 

[DMax]

I have decided I want to be one of those 'give it to me' people. How do I go about it. I mean, I am getting tired of working for everything I have/get. I want to just relax and have it handed to me.

Until the last couple of years I didn't know you could do that. I thought you had to work for what you have. Is there some web site I can look at?

Ed

www.obama2012.gov

 

[fd15k]

Not to nit pick but ...... ER's are for EMERGENCIES. I am assuming you were very feverish, had other dramatic or severe constitutional symptoms such as uncontrollable squirts, shortness of breath, low blood pressure, etc that justified that 20 minute ER visit. A 20 minute ER visit is as likely as me winning the Powerball and I never play it.

Your anecdote illustrates the need for fixing our health care system before it completely falls apart. Consumers of health insurance and health care are constantly having to fight for one while cajoling the other.

So when you're out of your state of residence, and in need of medical services. Where do you go ? I went to the nearest hospital. I guess I was charged a convenience fee.

Second, I need to make sure I understood you... did you just call me a liar ?

 

[Kevatc]

So when you're out of your state of residence, and in need of medical services. Where do you go ? I went to the nearest hospital. I guess I was charged a convenience fee.

Second, I need to make sure I understood you... did you just call me a liar ?

Sorry, you bring up a good point about the ER being the only option at times. No, I'm not calling you a liar but it takes 20 minutes just to enter in info when you want to be seen in an ER. If you were able to have a doc look at you, get a blood draw, and be discharged all in 20 minutes I would say that you should go buy a lottery ticket. I know I would've. Glad you are OK now.

 

[fd15k]

Sorry, you bring up a good point about the ER being the only option at times. No, I'm not calling you a liar but it takes 20 minutes just to enter in info when you want to be seen in an ER. If you were able to have a doc look at you, get a blood draw, and be discharged all in 20 minutes I would say that you should go buy a lottery ticket. I know I would've. Glad you are OK now.

They actually took care of me first, and then sent me to their paperwork person. I didn't count the latter in the 20 minute statement, but the entire experience was under an hour for sure.

 

[Kevatc]

They actually took care of me first, and then sent me to their paperwork person. I didn't count the latter in the 20 minute statement, but the entire experience was under an hour for sure.

Wow. I routinely refer to ER's as a part of what I do. The only people who get to bypass the paperwork initially are those who arrive by EMS. Glad you had a "in and out" experience.