Old Ammo Questions: 12 Gauge/45 GAP/9mm Black Talon

[Brand456]

Hello, so I'm pretty new to this site and have found it to be very useful in many ways. One thing I've always wondered and thought might be a good question to post here as there are so many knowledgeable people. I have started a collection just a few years ago of old ammo I found between antique shops and things that were given to me. I have a few different kinds, I was wondering if there is anyone on this forum who knows what I have and could tell me more about it as some of it I haven't really been able to find much information on. I have pictures attached for reference.

12 Gauge 3" Magnum Federal High power
12 Gauge 3" Magnum Winchester Super speed
Winchester 45 G.A.P.
9mm Black Talon

The 9mm, I was able to find research of it being outlawed? Also, the 45 G.A.P. Seems to be an entirely different case size than standard 45 ACP.

The shotgun ammo; being the oldest ammo I have, I was not able to find any information on at all.

I'm curious on if any of this ammo is safe to shoot, shouldn't be shot, or maybe an attempt to keep is clean and safe as maybe it's better to hold onto them?
I feel most comfortable with the 9mm as that seems perfectly fine to shoot, thinking about making it a defensive round although the type of round being a part of serious crimes in the past concerns me for if I actually needed to defend myself with it.

Any thoughts? Sorry if this was a long post.

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[CASCADEBOB]

I don't consider myself an expert but I have been around the block and don't mind giving you my .02 cents.

The black talons are no longer made. They were involved in some heavily publicized crimes and at one time were known as "cop killers". I personally wouldn't use them as self defense rounds because you are just giving some liberal district attorney more "ammo" against you if you ever did use them. I have seen them on sale here at NWFA and they usually go for quite a bit.

.45GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol) is a separate round altogether from .45ACP. You will need a firearm chambered in .45GAP to shoot the ammo. I believe a few manufacturers made pistols chambered for this round, not just Glock. Kinda like .357SIG.

As far as the shotgun shells go as long as they are not rusty I wouldn't have a problem shooting them. I have bought and fired many older shells that I found at flea markets, estate sales and the like and never had a problem.

Hope that helps. Like I said I'm not an expert but glad to help if I can.

 

[Brand456]

I don't consider myself an expert but I have been around the block and don't mind giving you my .02 cents.

The black talons are no longer made. They were involved in some heavily publicized crimes and at one time were known as "cop killers". I personally wouldn't use them as self defense rounds because you are just giving some liberal district attorney more "ammo" against you if you ever did use them. I have seen them on sale here at NWFA and they usually go for quite a bit.

.45GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol) is a separate round altogether from .45ACP. You will need a firearm chambered in .45GAP to shoot the ammo. I believe a few manufacturers made pistols chambered for this round, not just Glock. Kinda like .357SIG.

As far as the shotgun shells go as long as they are not rusty I wouldn't have a problem shooting them. I have bought and fired many older shells that I found at flea markets, estate sales and the like and never had a problem.

Hope that helps. Like I said I'm not an expert but glad to help if I can.

Thank you! Yeah that was my concern on the 9mm too. I think it'll just sit in closet. Unless of course zombies take over, I'll load 'em up. Otherwise I'll hang onto them. The shotgun ammo was very intriguing to me as well and have been slightly nervous to fire it but what you said makes me feel a little better about it. Maybe I could just sell off the 45 G.A.P. Then as I don't have a gun for it.

 

[Knobgoblin]

I'd keep the black talons just as a curio.
Definitely nothing wrong with them, but the bullet design and powder formulation have both been eclipsed by other new defensive rounds. If you see any Winchester Ranger T series ammo in same bullet weight, it's almost the same round that the black talon originally was.
Shotgun shells are definitely cool , but not quite old enough to warrant saving as collectible . I shoot stuff like that when it turns up. Maybe save the box if it's pristine.
45gap is just an unsuccessful round that isn't really worth hanging on to.
Try and trade it off , or even just give it to someone who needs it. Can't have enough good karma.

 

[esbshaw]

If you decide to shoot the 3 inch Federals, be prepared. Those things will jar the fillings in your teeth loose! By way of comparison, an average 12 gauge target load is 2 3/4 dram equiv. of powder and 1 oz. of shot. That's what I normally shoot from the 16 yard line. A stout target load is 3 dram equiv. and 1 1/8 oz. of shot. That box of Federals you have are 4 1/2 d.e. and 1 7/8 oz. of shot. Those damn things mean business!

 

[CLT65]

I love the old-school magnum goose loads- 4 1/2 dram eguiv., 1 7/8ox #2 lead shot. Those kick about as bad on one end as the other! (from experience)

If they look clean and stored well, I'd shoot them. Just be forewarned about the recoil.

The oldest ammo I normally shoot is from the 1930's. With a few exceptions, as long as it's been stored well it should be good for a very long time.

EDIT- esbshaw beat me to it!

 

[The Heretic]

The 9mm, I was able to find research of it being outlawed?

Black Talons were used in a highly publicized shooting at a lawyer's office in California.

Right afterwards, I bought a case (500) of .45 ACP Black Talon. They fed better in my .45 ACP pistol better than any other ammo. About a year or so ago I sold what remained of them - about 450 rounds IIRC for 2X+ what I paid for them. they are now a collectors item - I think the buyer was going to sell them individually.

They were not outlawed.

After that shooting, eventually Winchester made them "LE only" and then stopped marketing them as Black Talon altogether.

The current SXT & "Ranger" pistol ammo is essentially an improved Black Talon.

If you have only one box I would just hang onto them. I think I still have a box or two in other calibers laying around.

 

[Tony617]

The Black Talon they stopped making back in 2000. They then created the Winchester Ranger SXT which but they made some changes to it. Winchester removed the black Lubalox coating as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

 

[Howard1955]

Choot'em all.

If you get a dud that takes a few seconds to go bang after you pull the trigger, just keep the gun pointed down range until it pops.

If you have a round that just sort of coughs, don't fire another one until you've checked the barrel. If you get a slug stuck in there, you'll need to get it out of the way before shooting another round.

I used an old (very old) 12 gauge slug to kill a deer. It worked fine, even though the ammunition was from my wife's grandfather.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

You may run into an issue with the 3" mag 12ga rounds, they are the older 'paper' style and they can swell over time making them oversized and difficult or even impossible to chamber. This is an 'either/or' situation, either they will chamber just fine, or they will not.

I know this to be true because I bought a bunch of 16ga paper shells that are now just sitting in box while I try and figure out what to do with them

 

[Knobgoblin]

You may run into an issue with the 3" mag 12ga rounds, they are the older 'paper' style and they can swell over time making them oversized and difficult or even impossible to chamber. This is an 'either/or' situation, either they will chamber just fine, or they will not.

I know this to be true because I bought a bunch of 16ga paper shells that are now just sitting in box while I try and figure out what to do with them

Run em in a 12ga.

Just kidding, don't do that.

 

[Brand456]

You may run into an issue with the 3" mag 12ga rounds, they are the older 'paper' style and they can swell over time making them oversized and difficult or even impossible to chamber. This is an 'either/or' situation, either they will chamber just fine, or they will not.

I know this to be true because I bought a bunch of 16ga paper shells that are now just sitting in box while I try and figure out what to do with them

Thank you for that info, I will be very careful with those.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Thank you for that info, I will be very careful with those.

Not much careful needed, just don't try and jam them in the chamber and you'll be fine