Black talon ammo isn't illegal is it?

[toddhastie]

I have a buddy.... he owns a bunch of black talon ammo, but was recently told (with all certainty by an FFL) that it was banned and illegal?

I thought it was just that the antis made a big stink about it so they stopped making it, but that it was still legal to possess/sell/buy. Then winchester basically put out the exact same ammo without the speciaized coating and all has been good ever since.

Am I misinformed?

Asking for a friend.....

I have thousands of rounds of it in every configuration they ever sold it in. All have the black Lubalox coating. I don't know what FFL you talked to, but I have bought boxes of it from FFL's many times. So if it where illegal they would have a problem putting them on their shelves and selling it. It was never banned and it was never outlawed. It was simply pulled off the market due to pressure that was put on Winchester.. And although it was pulled off the market for "Civilians" production of Black Talon did not cease until 2000, and it was sold to Law Enforcement continuously even after it was pulled from store shelves.

 

[toddhastie]

The most unappreciated part of the ammunition when they removed it from the market long ago was in the name!
(BLACK)!
The critics and anti gun crowd focused on the "Black Talon" name. In 1993 Winchester discontinued the pistol calibers and the entire line completely in 2000. At no time was the round ever prohibited by United States law. In was estimated that as many as 400 police departments at some point or another carried Black Talon ammunition in their service weapons. Even though the Black Talon was a PR nightmare for Winchester, it was not a complete loss. Most of the design for it was rolled over into the Ranger SXT ammunition, which operates on much of the same principles.

All of it was rolled into Ranger SXT. They changed the name and that was it. It was not redesigned or "enhanced" as Winchester calls it, until it was renamed the T Series and had the designation of RA9T or RA45T etc etc.. The black Lubalox coated bullets that came in Boxes that said Ranger SXT are Black Talons with zero difference except for the cases being changed to Brass instead of Nickel, although they did still make it in Nickel cases for certain departments.

 

[Spitpatch]

A very important factor in the whole hullabaloo about Black Talon ammo I believe no one has mentioned here is that Winchester actually "shot themselves in the foot", so to speak in their advertising.

Magazine ads for Black Talon were rather edgy and graphic in detailed dramatic descriptions of what the bullet would do to a recipient. Add a couple shootings where it was discovered that this horrifyingly described (by its own manufacturer!) bullet was used, a healthy dose of ever-present emotion on such matters, and Winchester was compelled to take a more demure route toward the product and its promotion.

In related news, just last week Biden gave a textbook description of the performance of (any) expanding bullet, and finished with the statement there is no need for them in America.

 

[Certaindeaf]

A very important factor in the whole hullabaloo about Black Talon ammo I believe no one has mentioned here is that Winchester actually "shot themselves in the foot", so to speak in their advertising.

Magazine ads for Black Talon were rather edgy and graphic in detailed dramatic descriptions of what the bullet would do to a recipient. Add a couple shootings where it was discovered that this horrifyingly described (by its own manufacturer!) bullet was used, a healthy dose of ever-present emotion on such matters, and Winchester was compelled to take a more demure route toward the product and its promotion.

In related news, just last week Biden gave a textbook description of the performance of (any) expanding bullet, and finished with the statement there is no need for them in America.

Now every gun model has a name like Eviscerator or Judge or something. Unnecessary cringe.

 

[DeanMk]

I have a buddy.... he owns a bunch of black talon ammo, but was recently told (with all certainty by an FFL) that it was banned and illegal?

I thought it was just that the antis made a big stink about it so they stopped making it, but that it was still legal to possess/sell/buy. Then winchester basically put out the exact same ammo without the speciaized coating and all has been good ever since.

Am I misinformed?

Asking for a friend.....

 

[GrayGoose]

Black Talon will blow your lung out, and the lung of the guy next to you.

 

[toddhastie]

That might just be one of the most inaccuarate Black Talon videos I have ever seen! The guy says they where popular in the 80's when they did not even come out until the 90's. He said they are basically Winchester Silver Tips covered in Lubalox, which is dead wrong. The bullet was engineered from the ground up; the only similarity between the two is that they are hallowpoints. I mean not a video I would personally guide people towards if they want facts. Guys like this who don't know what they are talking about is the reason there is so much misinformation out there about Black Talon.

 

[DeanMk]

That might just be one of the most inaccuarate Black Talon videos I have ever seen! The guy says they where popular in the 80's when they did not even come out until the 90's. He said they are basically Winchester Silver Tips covered in Lubalox, which is dead wrong. The bullet was engineered from the ground up; the only similarity between the two is that they are hallowpoints. I mean not a video I would personally guide people towards if they want facts. Guys like this who don't know what they are talking about is the reason there is so much misinformation out there about Black Talon.

Not saying you're wrong, but can you prove your claims?

 

[ma96782]

FYI.

Black Talon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of course, some people DO NOT just believe anything they read on the internet. So.....Whatever.

Aloha, Mark

 

[DeanMk]

FYI.

Black Talon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of course, some people DO NOT just believe anything they read on the internet. So.....Whatever.

Aloha, Mark

Wow Mark, who pissed in your Cheerios this morning?
...and why are you suddenly Todd Hastie's spokesman?
Whatever.
I see your point, but there are elements of Esquad's story that the article supports, as well, so the guy isn't totally lying.

 

[ma96782]

LOL.....I wasn't saying/implying that anyone was WRONG or RIGHT. I merely presented the Wikipedia Article.

Then......if anyone wants to QUESTION the stuff. Well, Wikipedia has a way to "update" their articles.

Aloha, Mark

PS.....I lived through that era. It wasn't pretty, nor helpful. Then again....."Marketing." Yeah....it apprears that some manufacturers (and AD Firms) haven't LEARNED some important lessons about the public.

Nope......LOL......I'm NOT drinking Bud Light either.

 

[DeanMk]

I remember the Black Talon as well, and all the @$$hats who came along with it. Sad part is, only the ammo is gone now.

 

[toddhastie]

Not saying you're wrong, but can you prove your claims?

I can it's a book called Street Stoppers by Evan P Marshall and Edwin Sanow and it's everything you need to know about modern handgun ammo from its inception until now, including the history of the round in question and performance of the round from actual shootings and autopsies. Not to mention a quick google search and Wikipedia will answer that as well. I also have the old manuals and sales catalogs from Winchester for the Black Talon and Ranger T. I personally own thousands of rounds of it in every configuration they ever made it in for 9mm, 40 and 45 ACP as well as the black talon rifle line known as fail safe.. I am more than well versed in the history of it.. I never said the guy was totally lying, but his fact to fudd ratio is a little off and leaning more towards the fudd side of things… If I told you 9/11 happened in the 90's would you trust the facts I presented thereafter or would you take it with a grain of salt? For further proof I have attached a photo of the chapter on Black Talon ammo from the book mentioned above. If you would like to zoom in on the photo you can clearly read that it was announced at shot show in 1992, so somthing tells me I might be correct. If you need any other proof or clarification let me know. Extra tidbit if you read through the first few paragraphs they talk about the silver tip and how the Black Talon is different. The video you presented is some guy flapping his gums and saying that Black Talon is just coated silver tip ammo.. Silver Tip never had talons and was never engineered with the reverse tapper jacket that creates the talons upon expansion.. I am not the type of gun owner who just goes out there and takes guesses and buys whatever looks cool, I take the time to actually learn about these things and the history behind them.

 

[toddhastie]

FYI.

Black Talon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of course, some people DO NOT just believe anything they read on the internet. So.....Whatever.

Aloha, Mark

Thank you for bringing it to his attention that there is more than enough information on the internet to back up what I am saying.

 

[Flopsweat]

FYI.

Black Talon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of course, some people DO NOT just believe anything they read on the internet. So.....Whatever.

Aloha, Mark

Mark, seriously, I like a lot of your posts, but if you want to be taken seriously, maybe try not to quote Wikipedia on anything related to guns or politics. They have a horrible track record.

 

[ma96782]

LOL......what do you suggest?

Aloha, Mark

 

[DeanMk]

I can it's a book called Street Stoppers by Evan P Marshall and Edwin Sanow and it's everything you need to know about modern handgun ammo from its inception until now, including the history of the round in question and performance of the round from actual shootings and autopsies. Not to mention a quick google search and Wikipedia will answer that as well. I also have the old manuals and sales catalogs from Winchester for the Black Talon and Ranger T. I personally own thousands of rounds of it in every configuration they ever made it in for 9mm, 40 and 45 ACP as well as the black talon rifle line known as fail safe.. I am more than well versed in the history of it.. I never said the guy was totally lying, but his fact to fudd ratio is a little off and leaning more towards the fudd side of things… If I told you 9/11 happened in the 90's would you trust the facts I presented thereafter or would you take it with a grain of salt? For further proof I have attached a photo of the chapter on Black Talon ammo from the book mentioned above. If you would like to zoom in on the photo you can clearly read that it was announced at shot show in 1992, so somthing tells me I might be correct. If you need any other proof or clarification let me know. Extra tidbit if you read through the first few paragraphs they talk about the silver tip and how the Black Talon is different. The video you presented is some guy flapping his gums and saying that Black Talon is just coated silver tip ammo.. Silver Tip never had talons and was never engineered with the reverse tapper jacket that creates the talons upon expansion.. I am not the type of gun owner who just goes out there and takes guesses and buys whatever looks cool, I take the time to actually learn about these things and the history behind them.

View attachment 1411198

Uncle.
Again, never said you were lying, but you seemed extrememly confident in calling the guy in the video out.
My research was to call you out and make you prove your point, which you did.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify your original statment.

 

[Flopsweat]

LOL......what do you suggest?

Aloha, Mark

bing.com or search.brave.com


Here's the first result that came back when I searched for "black talon ammo history":

Black Talon

Black Talon is a type of ammunition that was introduced by Winchester Ammunition in 1991 primarily for law enforcement and self-defense. This hollow-point ammunition became known for its bullet's unique construction and sharp petal shape after expansion following impact with tissue or other wet...

military-history.fandom.com

It's not bad at all.

Here's the second result of my search:

Black Talon and Today’s Best Self-Defense Ammo - The Shooter's Log

Many believe the Winchester’s Black Talon was one of the greatest self-defense rounds ever designed. Due to controversy and a couple of high-profile public shootings, Winchester chose to discontinue the Black Talon in 2000. The Black Talon was innovative. However, today’s modern hollow-point...

blog.cheaperthandirt.com

It's pretty good too.

These are not the first two acceptable results from my search. These are literally the first two results that came back from search.brave.com .

 

[Hooyah DeepSea]

FRANKLY SPEAKING . . .

I'm rather amazed that this thread has gone on this long . . . four pages, Wow!!

 

[FireArm]

...