Obamacare: IRS to track gun sales

[taylor]

Why are we still giving our soldiers rifles?

So we can send them to go fight in foreign wars as merceneries protecting the Saudi's *** and our "foreign interests".

 

[rufus]

The best reason yet to kill the bill: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

Bottom line - it doesn't work.

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

Bold talk from an internet warrior. Don't ask about the rest of Americans. What are you doing, other than squatting to pee and posting brave ideas on the internet from the anonymous safety of your computer? All I see are brave patriots spouting off about their bravery and not willing to do a thing to risk their ability to watch television in the evening.

Patrick Henry: "Give me liberty or I'll post something brave sounding on the internet. Don't make me put down this remote and make my angry face."

Don't know why you're bustin' his stones. There is nothing "anonymous" about anything posted on the internet. If "they" are curious, they know exactly who said what to whom using any technology above a whisper in the woods (and I sometimes wonder about that). I would say that we are in the waking people up phase of a peaceful revolution. Any conversation that makes people ask questions is good conversation. We do not have to go down the path we are being led to - all it takes is enough of us to stand up and say no. They are few and we are many. I'm not holding out much hope for peaceful, but I still have some small hope for results in the november elections. Throw all the bums out. Many of us are willing to make any sacrifice to uphold the oath we took, but like anyone - we love life and will not just throw it away for nothing. The time for sacrifice may come, but we all hope for another way out of this mess. Meanwhile - keep your powder dry, keep spreading the word, and keep asking questions.

 

[rufus]

Don't know why you're bustin' his stones. There is nothing "anonymous" about anything posted on the internet. If "they" are curious, they know exactly who said what to whom using any technology above a whisper in the woods (and I sometimes wonder about that). I would say that we are in the waking people up phase of a peaceful revolution. Any conversation that makes people ask questions is good conversation. We do not have to go down the path we are being led to - all it takes is enough of us to stand up and say no. They are few and we are many. I'm not holding out much hope for peaceful, but I still have some small hope for results in the november elections. Throw all the bums out. Many of us are willing to make any sacrifice to uphold the oath we took, but like anyone - we love life and will not just throw it away for nothing. The time for sacrifice may come, but we all hope for another way out of this mess. Meanwhile - keep your powder dry, keep spreading the word, and keep asking questions.

Very well said.

 

[weekendclimber]

Don't know why you're bustin' his stones. There is nothing "anonymous" about anything posted on the internet. If "they" are curious, they know exactly who said what to whom using any technology above a whisper in the woods (and I sometimes wonder about that). I would say that we are in the waking people up phase of a peaceful revolution. Any conversation that makes people ask questions is good conversation. We do not have to go down the path we are being led to - all it takes is enough of us to stand up and say no. They are few and we are many. I'm not holding out much hope for peaceful, but I still have some small hope for results in the november elections. Throw all the bums out. Many of us are willing to make any sacrifice to uphold the oath we took, but like anyone - we love life and will not just throw it away for nothing. The time for sacrifice may come, but we all hope for another way out of this mess. Meanwhile - keep your powder dry, keep spreading the word, and keep asking questions.

I have no problem with people "spreading the word", it's the "spreading the fear" part that I have a problem with.

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

I have no problem with people "spreading the word", it's the "spreading the fear" part that I have a problem with.

I agree. Fear sucks - they use it to control us. That doesn't mean that they are not doing things that we should question. You get past the fear eventually. You shouldn't look away just because you don't want to believe what your eyes are telling you. Evaluate what is going on, make your best preparations for it and go about your life as normally as possible. Patrick Henry had some good words on the subject:

“It is natural for man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts... For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.”

Gotta love those founding fathers - pure genius.

 

[weekendclimber]

I agree. Fear sucks - they use it to control us. That doesn't mean that they are not doing things that we should question. You get past the fear eventually. You shouldn't look away just because you don't want to believe what your eyes are telling you. Evaluate what is going on, make your best preparations for it and go about your life as normally as possible. Patrick Henry had some good words on the subject:

“It is natural for man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts... For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.”

Gotta love those founding fathers - pure genius.

That is some good advice from Mr. Henry. That's why I refuse to believe the lie that the OP started this thread with.

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

That is some good advice from Mr. Henry. That's why I refuse to believe the lie that the OP started this thread with.

Been having such a good time yakkin', I had to go back and read the OP... (Sorry for jackin around).

I wouldn't call the OP a lie. Although guns sales aren't specifically called out, the end result is the same. They will have the records through the 1099's. I view this along the same lines as the census information. Although they were not asking for any information I specifically objected to providing, I absolutely do not trust them to keep any information I provide safe and free from abuse. In principle, I would like to provide as little information to .gov as possible. It's a trust issue.

 

[rufus]

That is some good advice from Mr. Henry. That's why I refuse to believe the lie that the OP started this thread with.

...to each his own.

 

[CEF1959]

I'm willing to give odds on this. I'll give 10-1 odds that November elections will be held as scheduled. $100 minimum bet. If you win, I pay you $1000. If you lose, you pay me $100. I'll take the first ten bets.

Takers? Anyone? Bueller? Lotsa bold talk around here, precious little conviction.

I'm still waiting..... So far, I'm just hearing psycho-paranoid blather about the danger of Obama without any takers willing to put their money where their (big fat) mouths are. What's that sound I hear in the background? Is that a chicken I hear squawking? Or just more chatter from wannabe revolutionaries sitting on the sofa flipping channels on the remote?

Which of you tinfoil hat Obama paranoids will accept my challenge? 10-1. Huge odds if you believe in what you say.

 

[weekendclimber]

Been having such a good time yakkin', I had to go back and read the OP... (Sorry for jackin around).

I wouldn't call the OP a lie. Although guns sales aren't specifically called out, the end result is the same. They will have the records through the 1099's. I view this along the same lines as the census information. Although they were not asking for any information I specifically objected to providing, I absolutely do not trust them to keep any information I provide safe and free from abuse. In principle, I would like to provide as little information to .gov as possible. It's a trust issue.

I'm sorry, the last time I filled out a 1099 for one of my contractor's there was not a place to put "guns bought" or anything of the sort. The only thing they would remotely have is that you bought "this many dollars" of stuff form "this business". And again, unless you didn't see the quoted text I posted from the actual bill, this only pertains to "a trade or business and making payment in the course of such trade or business". This does not pertain to individuals AT ALL. So, yes the subject that the OP post ("Obamacare: IRS to track gun sales") is a flat out bald faced lie. Listen, I'm not trying to insult anyone (and I sincerely apologize if in someway I have done that to anyone), but spreading fear about something that is false is just plain wrong. It would be nice if during all or your preparing for the SHTF situations, you also prepare you mind along with that.

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

I'm still waiting..... So far, I'm just hearing psycho-paranoid blather about the danger of Obama without any takers willing to put their money where their (big fat) mouths are. What's that sound I hear in the background? Is that a chicken I hear squawking? Or just more chatter from wannabe revolutionaries sitting on the sofa flipping channels on the remote?

Which of you tinfoil hat Obama paranoids will accept my challenge?

I don't understand your point. I don't personally believe that the november elections will be cancelled, so I'm not jumping on your offer. I wouldn't put 2010 election cancellation outside the realm of possibility, just unlikely. 2012 seems more possible than 2010, but still unlikely to me. I'm pretty sure they screw with the system whenever they can get away with it. I believe we have witnessed many stolen elections over the last decade or so. I'm not specifically OBAMA paranoid, I believe the problem is systemic (they all suck). As far as squawking, the time may come to jump on the grenade, but not yet.

 

[rufus]

I'm sorry, the last time I filled out a 1099 for one of my contractor's there was not a place to put "guns bought" or anything of the sort. The only thing they would remotely have is that you bought "this many dollars" of stuff form "this business". And again, unless you didn't see the quoted text I posted from the actual bill, this only pertains to "a trade or business and making payment in the course of such trade or business". This does not pertain to individuals AT ALL. So, yes the subject that the OP post ("Obamacare: IRS to track gun sales") is a flat out bald faced lie. Listen, I'm not trying to insult anyone (and I sincerely apologize if in someway I have done that to anyone), but spreading fear about something that is false is just plain wrong. It would be nice if during all or your preparing for the SHTF situations, you also prepare you mind along with that.

I understand what you are saying. Let me see if I can help you understand my point. From the link in my original post:

It applies to all businesses who buy from "persons." If you sell your gun for over $600 to an FFL, the FFL must send in a 1099 on you which reports the sale by you to the IRS. It is not simply a "business to business" reporting requirement. (Which, even if it was, would still be bad for business.)
Sec. 6041 says:
"All persons engaged in a trade or business and making payment in the course of such trade or business to another person, of rent, salaries, wages, premiums, annuities, compensations, remunerations, emoluments, or other fixed or determinable gains, profits, and income (other than payments to which section 6042(a)(1), 6044(a)(1), 6047(e), 6049(a), or 6050N(a) applies, and other than payments with respect to which a statement is required under the authority of section 6042(a)(2), 6044(a)(2), or 6045), or $600 or more in any taxable year" (Emphasis added)

This has the effect of creating a system of gun "sales to dealer" registration, controlled by the IRS. It also creates mountains of more paperwork for dealers who are already burdened with filling out 4473's, A&D (Acquisition and Disposition) Bound Books, receipts, and all the other paperwork associated with gun business. Even purchases made at gun shows or at people's homes by gun dealers will have to be reported. The current Form 1099 requires the buyer to state for what purpose the payment was made. (See: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1099msc.pdf and note blocks 1-14 of the 1099 form.) Who knows how the IRS will rewrite the new form and what more information will be demanded?

This may seem far-fetched, maybe not. In any event, it goes like this: You buy a gun from a gun shop. The gun shop owner files a 1099 on the transaction. The IRS enters it into a database.

Easy to follow so far, right? Now, think about what just transpired. If you have never been hassled by the IRS, the above would appear harmless. If you trust Big Government, no big deal. So what if the IRS has a database that contains information on how many guns you've purchased at a gun shop? Big deal if I sell you a gun and they know about it, it's just about collecting taxes. Or is it about health care? Not so sure, but the means really doesn't matter. It's all about the ends.

Is my point starting to make sense yet?

 

[weekendclimber]

You buy a gun from a gun shop. The gun shop owner files a 1099 on the transaction. The IRS enters it into a database.

I am an individual. If I buy a gun from the FFL the gun shop owner does not need to file a 1099 according to the way the law is written. Now if the gun shop owner buys a gun from another gun shop owner that is over $600 in value, he will have to file a 1099. But that was already the law before the health care bill passed.

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

I am an individual. If I buy a gun from the FFL the gun shop owner does not need to file a 1099 according to the way the law is written.

If your total purchases for the year are under $600 with the shop owner, I believe you are correct. If over $600, 1099 is in the mail. It's been a while since I had the shop, but I'm pretty sure the threshold for submitting 1099 was higher than $600. Also, the law before did not apply to individuals - now it appears that it does. Just more .gov nosiness.

 

[weekendclimber]

If your total purchases for the year are under $600 with the shop owner, I believe you are correct. If over $600, 1099 is in the mail.

False, I am not in the "trade or business" of gun sales or any other sales as an individual.

 

[weekendclimber]

I'm not trying to be combative or insulting, so I hope my posts are not being misconstrued. I realize you will have to trust me a bit, but I have spoken in length with our lawyer for my business. What is being stated by rufus and Sasquatchvnv is simply not true unless you are in the "trade or business" of selling or buying guns. If you are, you should have already been registered and filling out all the required paperwork.

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

False, I am not in the "trade or business" of gun sales or any other sales as an individual.

I have no desire to spread bum dope - so I appreciate anyone who can point to the truth. I went back and read it again. Looks like you're right - only applies if you sell to the FFL. (Or is that a misunderstanding as well?) I am looking for the actual text from the bill.

1099 Changes – 1099 Reporting Changes

1099 Changes
Currently, businesses must send 1099s to all individuals who provide more than $600 worth of services to that business in a calendar year. Independent contractors are used to receiving this form, and paying self-employment taxes on the income.

Beginning in 2012, the 1099 changes in the health care bill will extend required 1099s to all payments over $600 made to any vendor – this applies to both individuals and businesses/corporations, and to goods as well as services. So if your gourmet basket-making business buys $900 worth of wine and cheese, you’ll have to send a 1099 to your supplier. As this Business Week article points out, the requirement will even apply to money you spend at places like FedEx or the local gas station.

1099 Reporting Change Impacts
If you are a business owner, prepare to spend a lot more time collecting data, keeping records, and generating/sending paperwork. And if you have previously provided goods and failed to report income, know that that will change starting in 2012.

The government hopes the changes in 1099 reporting will generate additional tax revenue on income that has previously gone unreported – and it’s in the health care bill because that revenue could potentially pay for some of the bill’s costs.

More details will be known about Form 1099 changes when the IRS releases further provisions – a date when those provisions will be released is not yet known.

I dunno - sure looks like I would get a 1099 from any business I sold anything to for over $600. But like the article says, more details to follow...

 

[weekendclimber]

I have no desire to spread bum dope - so I appreciate anyone who can point to the truth. I went back and read it again. Looks like you're right - only applies if you sell to the FFL. (Or is that a misunderstanding as well?) I am looking for the actual text from the bill.

No, again if you sell it as an individual you still do not receive a 1099 unless this is your "trade or business". That means, unless this is a major source of income for you then it's no big deal, and big brother doesn't care. The trick with finding it in the text of the health care bill is that it has to be cut and pasted into the IRS code. The section in the health bill is "Section 9006 Expansion of Information Reporting Requirements". This then has to be combined with the IRS Code Section 6041. I realize it's confusing, but if you want to really make sense of it you have to sit down and do a lot of cut and pasting. Most of the IRS Code Section 6041 is still intact as it has been since Reagan signed it into law in 1986, when he raised everyone's social security taxes. But that's tangential to this discussion.

BTW, I think this is turning into a great discussion. I do this stuff for a living, so I actually enjoy talking about this stuff if you can believe that.

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

I am always willing to fess up if I'm wrong about something. In fact, there are a great many things I believe that I would like to be wrong about.