Obamacare: IRS to track gun sales

[rufus]

Remember "We have to pass the bill so you can see what’s in it"? How do you like this little provision:

Effective January 1, 2012, the national healthcare legislation passed by Congress contains tax provisions that will require gun dealers to report to the IRS their purchases of guns and any other goods valued over $600. This reporting will be required for purchases from either individuals or corporations. The new IRS provisions apply to all goods and services. IRS 1099 forms will have to be filed, reporting the purchase by the gun dealer. (This same IRS issue exists for gold and silver bullion dealers, coin dealers, knife dealers, car dealers or any other business that buys goods from a person.) It applies to all businesses who buy from "persons." If you sell your gun for over $600 to an FFL, the FFL must send in a 1099 on you which reports the sale by you to the IRS. It is not simply a "business to business" reporting requirement. (Which, even if it was, would still be bad for business.) … It is true that gun dealers already have to keep A&D books that require very specific information. However, the information is not centrally databased by the IRS. This new law creates a list of private gun sellers with the IRS. Also, FFL's who fail to file 1099's on folks who sold them guns and were paid over $600 may be caught during their license inspections by way of their A&D books. This will cause trouble for the gun dealer and tax trouble for the private seller...

Obamacare’s Hidden Gun Control

Read More

 

[Gunner3456]

Effective January 1, 2012, the national healthcare legislation passed by Congress contains tax provisions that will require gun dealers to report to the IRS their purchases of guns and any other goods valued over $600. This reporting will be required for purchases from either individuals or corporations. The new IRS provisions apply to all goods and services. IRS 1099 forms will have to be filed, reporting the purchase by the gun dealer. (This same IRS issue exists for gold and silver bullion dealers, coin dealers, knife dealers, car dealers or any other business that buys goods from a person.) It applies to all businesses who buy from "persons." If you sell your gun for over $600 to an FFL, the FFL must send in a 1099 on you which reports the sale by you to the IRS. It is not simply a "business to business" reporting requirement. (Which, even if it was, would still be bad for business.) … It is true that gun dealers already have to keep A&D books that require very specific information. However, the information is not centrally databased by the IRS. This new law creates a list of private gun sellers with the IRS. Also, FFL's who fail to file 1099's on folks who sold them guns and were paid over $600 may be caught during their license inspections by way of their A&D books. This will cause trouble for the gun dealer and tax trouble for the private seller...

This isn't just guns and gold etc. It's all merchandise and services. The cost of bookkeeping will drive some small businesses out of business.

 

[Cougfan2]

I remember reading somewhere that there was already an effort underway to get this portion of the health care bill repealed. One small dealer of gold coins said if this went into effect, he would have to hire two additional acccounting people just to deal with all the 1099's they would have to keep track of.

 

[Trlsmn]

This is the new 1099-MISC form. The government has stooped so low they now want their cut of little Marsha's babysitting money and little Bobby's paper route money.

 

[Redcap]

When will we say "enough!"?

 

[Trlsmn]

When will we say "enough!"?

There will be no fix until people stop aligning themselves as either Republicans or Democrats and start aligning themselves against Republicans and Democrats.

 

[doobee8]

Fall elections are our chance to say enough. Other than that, enough will be when there are food riots, squatter rebellions, and the jobless protest to no end.

 

[Trlsmn]

Fall elections are our chance to say enough. Other than that, enough will be when there are food riots, squatter rebellions, and the jobless protest to no end.

You just highlighted my personal Bellwether for when SHTF will start. History has shown people will tolerate terrible oppression and control under the lie that it is for the greater good (socialism, communism, dictatorships) When people aren't eating they only care about one thing, "food", when there is no food the killing will start, it always does.

This is reason number one why your government wants you disarmed.

 

[rufus]

There will be no fix until people stop aligning themselves as either Republicans or Democrats and start aligning themselves against Republicans and Democrats.

So true, & I've been screaming Enough! for decades now.

 

[Cougfan2]

You just highlighted my personal Bellwether for when SHTF will start. History has shown people will tolerate terrible oppression and control under the lie that it is for the greater good (socialism, communism, dictatorships) When people aren't eating they only care about one thing, "food", when there is no food the killing will start, it always does.

This is reason number one why your government wants you disarmed.

Soylent Green anyone?

 

[Trlsmn]

Soylent Green anyone?

Now we're back to "The Colony" thread.

 

[Decker]

You just highlighted my personal Bellwether for when SHTF will start. History has shown people will tolerate terrible oppression and control under the lie that it is for the greater good (socialism, communism, dictatorships) When people aren't eating they only care about one thing, "food", when there is no food the killing will start, it always does.

This is reason number one why your government wants you disarmed.

Well, watching Haiti (and any place else where there's been a massive tragedy I think it won't matter if they took every gun from everyone every where since then people would just use knives and bats and whatever else they could find. Apparently people like to eat. Go figure.

-d

 

[jddeloa67]

When we americans get the balls to stop it thats when enough is enough until then we squat to pee..........

When will we say "enough!"?

 

[CEF1959]

Back to the topic of this thread:

This statutory provision has nothing to do with guns, except that income reporting affects all businesses. It closes an income-reporting loophole. The IRS wants to know when you get paid for something, because that's presumed to be income. If you sell shares of stock, that gets reported. If you sell your labor, that gets reported. If you pay someone to make you a bunch of tinfoil hats, that's supposed to be reported. If you sell a used car to a dealership, that gets reported. If you sell a gun worth more than $600, that gets reported.

Believe it or not, some people make a living out of buying and selling guns privately, and most of that income is unreported.

This isn't the "IRS Tracking Gun Sales" as the OP so breathlessly claims. It's the IRS tracking financial transactions that may result in people under-reporting their income. If you buy a gun for $200 and sell it for $800, you have income. If you buy a gun for $800 and sell it for $700, you don't, even if your sale is reported as money received. Just like if you sell stock for $700 that you bought for $800. It's reported, but you don't owe tax. It's been that way for decades.

I'm not crazy about taxes, but I'm also not crazy about tax cheats whose failure to report their income results in my taxes going up. Of course, if you just hate taxes all the way 'round and champion tax evasion, I respect that point of view. It has a long history. But dang, it sure does make it hard on the rest of us who can't avoid taxes because of the payroll system of collection.

 

[Gunner3456]

Every takeover of a country by a dictator that I can think of offhand started with an economic collapse. In post WWI Germany the currency collapsed and it took a wheelbarrow full of cash to buy a loaf of bread.

Venezuela, much more recently, the same.

Then a Chavez or Hitler steps up and promises to save people and they follow. In Germany, the Jews first gave up their guns to Hitler. Imagine what would have happened if 12 million Jews had instead decided to fight with those guns. 6 million were killed and another 6 million managed to escape Germany. Hitler had an army of just 2 million and they were scattered all over Europe. We have an army of about 2 million including the NG and they are scattered all over the world. We have 90 million gun owners with about 250 million guns and who knows how much ammo.

Everything I see Obama doing appears to me to be an attempt to collapse our dollar and our economy. Obamacare is unaffordable. New regulations everywhere making it hard to do business. Takeovers of banks and Wall Street. More and more jobs going overseas. Cap and Trade looming... Unsustainable deficits... More no down payment home loans coming while we still have another two years of bad loans to go into default. Real estate market collapsing. Joblessness and underemployment way higher than admitted. The list goes on.

This is one more thing to make it hard or impossible for small businesses which provide as many as 80% of our jobs.

 

[elsullo]

There seems to be an endless parade of gun-nut Chicken Littles claiming that the sky is falling. So what if the IRS is trying to collect taxes? It simply must be noted that a business filling out and mailing in a 1099 Form is simply no big deal---it might add five minutes to their day. Small businesses are not going to fail. They keep purchase and sales receipts anyway for their taxes, so this is just not that big of an obstacle. As for the sellers, who ever heard of anyone making a PROFIT when selling a gun to a dealer? D) There is no profit to pay any taxes on, and you have a 1099 Form to prove it.......................elsullo

 

[rufus]

Back to the topic of this thread:

This statutory provision has nothing to do with guns, except that income reporting affects all businesses. It closes an income-reporting loophole. The IRS wants to know when you get paid for something, because that's presumed to be income. If you sell shares of stock, that gets reported. If you sell your labor, that gets reported. If you pay someone to make you a bunch of tinfoil hats, that's supposed to be reported. If you sell a used car to a dealership, that gets reported. If you sell a gun worth more than $600, that gets reported.

Believe it or not, some people make a living out of buying and selling guns privately, and most of that income is unreported.

This isn't the "IRS Tracking Gun Sales" as the OP so breathlessly claims. It's the IRS tracking financial transactions that may result in people under-reporting their income. If you buy a gun for $200 and sell it for $800, you have income. If you buy a gun for $800 and sell it for $700, you don't, even if your sale is reported as money received. Just like if you sell stock for $700 that you bought for $800. It's reported, but you don't owe tax. It's been that way for decades.

I'm not crazy about taxes, but I'm also not crazy about tax cheats whose failure to report their income results in my taxes going up. Of course, if you just hate taxes all the way 'round and champion tax evasion, I respect that point of view. It has a long history. But dang, it sure does make it hard on the rest of us who can't avoid taxes because of the payroll system of collection.

Perhaps you don't have a problem with the IRS having a database of private gun transactions, but I sure as heck do. It is true that this is not about gun control. It is, however, about control - the real objective of Obamacare.

(Opps, I said a bad word, but fixed it)

 

[Gunner3456]

It simply must be noted that a business filling out and mailing in a 1099 Form is simply no big deal. Small businesses are not going to fail. They keep purchace and sales receipts anyway for their taxes, so this is just not that big of an obstacle. As for the sellers, who ever heard of anyone making a PROFIT when selling a gun to a dealer? D) There is no profit to pay any taxes on, and you have a 1099 Form to prove it.......................elsullo

You're missing it. If the total of all transactions with one person or business totals $600 during the year, the 1099 must be done. That means that the business must all year long keep track of all business with everyone and determine which ones, as individuals, went over $600.

We're not talking about just one $600 transaction. We're talking about keeping track of all transactions, individual by individual and if the total is $600, then doing the 1099. This is a back breaker.

This is not just gun or gold dealers, this is all businesses.

 

[Cougfan2]

It simply must be noted that a business filling out and mailing in a 1099 Form is simply no big deal. Small businesses are not going to fail. They keep purchace and sales receipts anyway for their taxes, so this is just not that big of an obstacle. As for the sellers, who ever heard of anyone making a PROFIT when selling a gun to a dealer? D) There is no profit to pay any taxes on, and you have a 1099 Form to prove it.......................elsullo

Having to fill out a 1099 form isn't the issue. The issue is the number of 1099 forms some businesses would have to fill out because of the nature of their business. Gold coin dealers are the best example. It doesn't take a lot of gold to breach that $600 limit. It puts an undue overhead burden on business. I have no problem with them having to post profits from transactions and it is fair to tax those profits, but there just has to be a better and less burdensome way to do it.

 

[Reco]

Wouldn't be surprised if there was an "Event" that preempts the Nov elections. Then they could basically declare Martial law and suspend what's left of the Constitution. With the new Cyber laws President Obama could effectively declare an emergency and all internet use can now be suspended for up to 4 months. The list goes on and on with what potential abuses can be done to this country.

Oh well guess we will see....

Reco