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Obama realy screwed this one up, but doesnt take any blame

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by tonyspdx, Mar 28, 2011.

  1. tonyspdx

    tonyspdx Gresham, OR Member

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    Just read this, not sure if it is posted any place else in the forum.



    "Congress and the Department of Justice appear to be headed for a showdown this week over documents detailing Operation Fast and Furious, the botched gunrunning sting set up by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that funneled more than 1,700 smuggled weapons from Arizona to Mexico.

    The Justice Department has until Wednesday to deliver to congressional investigators a stack of records and emails naming the individuals responsible for the gun trafficking operation that may have killed dozens, if not hundreds of Mexicans, and is becoming a growing embarrassment for the Obama administration.

    Under Project Gunrunner and the Phoenix off-shoot, dubbed Fast and Furious, the ATF encouraged gun store owners to sell to straw buyers -- consumers who they suspected of working on behalf of Mexican drug cartels.

    Project Gunrunner purposely allowed the straw buyers to illegally buy and export guns only to see where they surfaced in Mexico. Using this investigative technique, the ATF hoped to take down the entire gun trafficking organization. Instead, records show it allowed more than 1,700 guns, including hundreds of AK-47s and high-powered, armor-piercing .50-caliber rifles to be trafficked to Mexico

    Buying guns for non-personal use is illegal. Yet gun store owners were assured by ATF agents the buyers were under investigation and the guns were being intercepted before crossing into Mexico.







    AFT's gunrunning investigations were supposed to stem the flow of guns, like these, bought by U.S. straw buyers and sold in Mexico.

    Instead, whistleblowers say the guns were allowed "to walk."

    President Obama, speaking for the first time about the growing scandal, conceded last week Fast and Furious may have been "a serious mistake," but he claimed, "I did not authorize it; Eric Holder, the attorney general, did not authorize it. He's been very clear that our policy is to catch gunrunners and put them into jail."

    But an investigation by Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, could show otherwise.

    The ATF operates under Justice Department, and two assistant U.S. attorneys in Phoenix authorized virtually every wiretap, affidavit and investigation conducted in Operation Fast and Furious.

    Some, like Issa, wonder how Holder could not have known about an investigation that size.

    "One of the questions we always ask is who is lying," Issa told Fox News. "We lose our credibility if we don't come clean and make the changes necessary to save lives on both sides of the border."

    If the Justice Department and ATF refuse to deliver the records Issa requested, as it already has done with similar requests by Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, Issa can subpoena the records.

    "We will subpoena if we have to, we'll hold hearings if we have to, we'll call in officials if we have to. But at the end of the day, the two Americans likely to have died as a result of this action pale in comparison to the countless numbers of Mexicans who have been killed," said Issa.

    He is referring to Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent Jamie Zapata. The guns used to kill both men were bought in the U.S. and investigators will now see if they are linked to Project Gunrunner.

    Humberto Trevino, a senior Mexican lawmaker, says at least 150 people have been shot with ATF-monitored guns.

    Two of the gun stores involved were Carter's Country in Houston and J&G Gun Sales in Prescott, Ariz.

    "Let me tell you something about Carter's Country. They have been co-operating with ATF from the get-go," says Carter's County attorney Dick Deguerin.

    "They were told to go through with what they considered to be questionable sales. They were told to go through with sales of three or more assault rifles at the same time or five or more 9-mm guns at the same time or a young Hispanic male paying in cash. It's all profiling, but they went through with it."

    Both gun stores felt burned by the ATF -- first by leaked records to The Washington Post that showed the two stores responsible for dozens of guns found at Mexican crime scenes, and now by Operation Fast and Furious.

    "You assumed they had your back," added J&G President Brad Desaye. "Absolutely, we felt like partners with ATF in a lot of ways."

    Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich said in a Feb. 4 letter the operation's purpose was "to dismantle the entire trafficking organization, not merely to arrest straw purchasers."

    "The allegation -- that ATF 'sanctioned' or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to a straw purchaser who then transported them into Mexico -- is false," he wrote.

    Holder also says his department policy is not to "let guns walk."


    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/28/obama-administration-mounting-pressure-botched-gun-trafficking-investigation/#ixzz1HwM6x6Yl"
     
  2. elsullo

    elsullo Portland Oregon New Member

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    So, why exactly try to blame it on President Obama in the title of your post? Why assume that he micromanages the Department of Justice and each and every independent administrator there? Why even assume that Attorney General Holder knows what each and every inedpendent administrator across several departments with thousands of employees is up to? Let's hope that the investigation in Congress gets to the bottom of who authorized this fiasco. But until then there is absolutely no evidence yet that Obama or Holder are lying when they say that they did not know about it......................is there?................................elsullo
     
  3. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    What hasn't Obongo screwed up or lied about? Much shorter list

    No matter how much his cheerleaders keep trying to pump him up, the American voter has finally awoken to what he really is

    However this passage of the article is not entirely correct..

    You can buy a gun as a gift to another person who is not prohibited from firearms possession
     
  4. tonyspdx

    tonyspdx Gresham, OR Member

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    Actually Administrative heads of these departments are appointed positions by the President. Holder especially would have been consulted on this as it pertains to US legal policy. At the very least, you have a rogue Federal department that is circumventing US law and boarder security. The heads of the DOJ, ATF, and Homeland Security all answer to the President. It’s his job to know what is going on. It’s his job to make sure that he appoints the correct people to inform him of such operations. Don’t try to minimize the ramifications of an absentee President or a rogue Federal agency. They are both very bad.
     
  5. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    It's all Bush's fault, don't you remember? Everything bad that is currently happening with this administration is solely "Bush's fault".
     
  6. tonyspdx

    tonyspdx Gresham, OR Member

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    The reality is that every Administration is corupt at some level.
     
  7. freeman3911

    freeman3911 Portland, OREGON Member

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    Exactly. Bush, Obama they are all politicians. same game different team; we're all gettin bubblegumed one way or another
     
  8. WhyteCheddar

    WhyteCheddar East of Moscow by the Willamette Well-Known Member

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    Direct knowledge or not. The buck stops on his desk, and that makes him culpable on some level. At the very least.
     
  9. CarlMc

    CarlMc Safely north of Seattle Active Member

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    Every time any little peon in the Bush administration screwed up, it was Bush's fault, even though I don't recall him ever trying to pass the buck. Since the standard had been set that high for eight years, why lower the standards for Obama?

    Personally, since I don't know enough about what happened, I'm trying hard to withold judgement. I have to admit, though, it's not looking good for the current administration.
     
  10. 74sporty

    74sporty metro portland Active Member

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    quite honestly i dont feel there was much of any standards the bush administration went by. seemed like they were winging it and made choices that benefit the wealthy, lied to us about reasons of going to war, were the parents of the patriot act, and generally allowed our economy to tank with of course the help of fannie and aig and countless others. obama sure isn't perfect, but i think compared to the bush administration... eh he aint bad.

    but 1700 documented weapons allowed to cross the boarder? thats a butt load. someone does need to answer to that. it also goes to show what kind of problems we have and its little wonder we have an immigration problem that no one seems to want to associate with the drug cartel problem. who wants to live in a mexican boarder town? you'd have to be stupid. i dont even want to be around rockwood.
     
  11. JohnWayne82

    JohnWayne82 Newberg, OR Member

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    74, I think you misunderstood. The standard that CarlMc is refering to is that while President Bush was in office, any number of small incidences were deemed to be his fault or his administration's fault. We all remember how Bush caused a hurricane, don't we?
     
  12. supergenius

    supergenius 206 Active Member

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    Ya, because we all KNOW the PRESIDENT (regardless of who or what party)is the one really running the show right??? Jesus. Do you people really believe that crap?

    Sheep
     
  13. JohnWayne82

    JohnWayne82 Newberg, OR Member

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    But if I don't have anyone to blame I'll have to take responsibility for things myself! ;)


    Lamb
     
  14. 74sporty

    74sporty metro portland Active Member

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    people have to be reasonable about what they hold people accountable for. i dont think he caused a hurricane, but do think poorly in how quickly and effectively he reacted to it. relief and rescue were slow. and yes, the pres isn't the only one calling the shots. i have a nagging suspicion that cheney fellow had a bit of influence on old george. you cant blame all the problems on one man, but he should share some blame. i guess its easy to put an umbrella label over the whole administration as "BUSH"

    Shepard
     
  15. coyote223

    coyote223 NW Oregon Stamp Collector,,,

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    Obama's getting ready to arm al qaeda. Why not the mexican drug cartel as well? ;):winkkiss::p
     
  16. WhyteCheddar

    WhyteCheddar East of Moscow by the Willamette Well-Known Member

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    There is usually a good reason why a coach is fired when a team underperforms.
     
  17. jgeist

    jgeist Oregon Active Member

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    So now doing nothing is good? Two + years in office, what has Obama done that has had a positive effect on this Country? Other than bring this country down, not a dam thing. This is just one more example of his lack of qualifications and you bring up the immigration problems and Obama wants to give all of them a free pass.. I really don't care what people thought of Bush, that administration of over, but to say this clown gets a pass because of what a different administration did is just wrong. He should be measured on his contribution to this country and that is nothing but disgrace, incompetence, lies and ignorance.
     
  18. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    Obama himself has micromanaged local LEOs, and even car makers; nevertheless, when a Federal institution messes up to the point of getting people killed due to incompetance/negligance he won't take the case?

    Yeah, I'm throwing a flag on the play here chief...what the ATF does directly affects the way the entire world perceives the USA...especially when our mess-ups cross international boarders!
     
  19. CarlMc

    CarlMc Safely north of Seattle Active Member

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    JohnWayne, you beat me to the response. I was at the range with one of my daughters, letting her enjoy a boomstick, and that was a higher priority than responding to this misplaced response.

    There's an important point that few people see in the federal response to Katrina. To cover it in the media would thoroughly gut the "Bash Bush machine," so it was ignored. Bush and the federal government COULD NOT provide any assistance until he was asked by the state of Lousiana for the help. Tenth ammendment/state rights/premption; all that. The feds prepositioned lots of equipment and resources just out of the area, but nothing could cross the border UNTIL THE REQUEST WAS MADE. Those state office holders who should have realized that the scope of the impending doom was beyond the state's capabilities and made an immediate request for federal help are no longer in office, thrown out by the residents who realized what it was all about: playing politics with people's lives.

    Back to my original point: If you have one set of standards for the guy in office that you like, but have a different set of standards for the guy in office that you don't like, you're lower than worm feces in my book. At least Maxine Waters and Dennis Kucinich were consistent on opposing both Iraq and Libya. I respect those two a little more now, at least for their consistency.

    For the record, I'm not sold either way on the attack on Libya. Since no effort has been made to convince me that it's worth the expense in resources and eventual lives, I'm inclined to think it was a few days too late to help the rebels, who were pretty much beaten back by the time Obama pushed the button. I can see the national security risk to Europe (Libya is their main oil supplier) but not to the US, which is a real stretch to me since Libya wasn't supporting or training any outside militant groups that I recall, other than the Pan Am bomber. Perhaps that was why Europe took the lead.

    As to Project Gunrunner/Fast and Furious, I'm suspecting it was a case of one or more district attorneys in Phoenix, working in plausible deniability fashion with Holder, and obviously Obama's tacit or unwritten approval (does the buck stop at his desk anymore?) to put a negative light on things in order to create a crisis that would grease the skids for additional gun control. Gun control from the self-defense aspect wasn't gaining any traction, and if they had a crisis they could exploit, that would be the way to do it. Since they didn't have a crisis, it was a shoddy attempt to fabricate one, I suspect. Bloomberg is either a useful idiot, or is aware to some degree, because he's been milking the "crisis" for all it was worth. His timing in the chain of events is suspect, which leads me to think he knows more than he's letting on.
     
  20. jimwsea

    jimwsea Vancouver, Washington state Active Member

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    The Fed runs this country, ever since they took us off the gold standard. Who else can demand and walk out the door with $700,000,000 without saying what they are going to do with it. Our Fed, a central bank, answers to the international bankers. Presidents are puppets for these bankers. The want the NWO so they can control the worlds' economy (hence installing a central bank in Libya...four countries to go).

    Mayer Rothchild said "Give me control over a nations' money, and I care not who makes the laws." Its all about controlling the world's money supply.

    They've also done a very good job of keeping the spotlight off themselves, and getting people arguing about anything else.