NON-Lethal Ammo, and blanks... in SD

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The use of NOn-Lethal or Less then lethal ammo in self defense against another human, is only of value to Law Enforcement. The reason being, is that they have a lot more leeway in the use of their firearms then we do. They can pull and point their firearm in many cases that we can not.

Less then Lethal ammo, and even ammo claimed to be non-lethal can still be lethal under some circumstances.

The reason this ammo is not viable for civilian use is several.

1. The legal exemptions that you can pull and point your gun at someone in a threatening manner remain the same, with live deadly ammo, or less then lethal, or even an unloaded empty gun.

2. If you do shoot someone, the exemptions that allow you to shoot do not change even if your gun has less then lethal ammo loaded. Even with blanks. Because blanks can be deadly too. The ONLY thing it may save you from are charges of actual murder, manslaughter, or negligent homicide. You could still be guilty of many other crimes such as attempted murder, unlawful discharge of a firearm, or many others. Less then lethal ammunition won’t negate any of those laws, if it was unlawful to shoot in the first place.

3.Someone can still be a threat even if shot with less then lethal ammunition, especially if they have a weapon. Depending on what they are wearing and their physical size, it is possible that it might have absolutely no effect. I have personally seen one very large man, wearing a thick leather coat, hit at least 10 times with shotgun bean bags with zero effect.

In regards to using less then lethal ammo against animals in Self Defense. Using this type of ammo in some cases can be beneficial. However, in most cases will still not change the law regarding the legal exemptions when you can pull, point and use your firearm against an animal. With some minor exceptions. There are times you absolutely should not use less then lethal ammo against an animal.

Keeping in mind there are two reasons (Beyond normal hunting) to kill an animal. True self defense to save the life of yourself or of another human, or of your family pet, or of any livestock (farm) animal that you raise as a hobby or for your livelihood.Then second reason is from damage to your physical property. There are caveats to these exemptions though, certain exceptions

1. I would not personally recommend using less then lethal ammo against a dangerous large animal for self defense. Such as a bear, moose, elephant, hippo. Etc.... this could anger the animal and increase the threat level greatly. We might want to use this type of ammo to save the live of the animal and scare it off, but research has shown that in most cases it is NOT effect in getting the animal to retreat and only increases the threat level. The legalities of shooting and using your weapon remain the same with less then lethal ammo, as if you used normal ammo. While blanks and flash/bang ammo can scare many off. The side effects can be negative. Especially if your not wearing ear protection, or your in an area. Flash bangs can very easily start fires. So can blanks.

2. use of less then lethal ammo against a smaller animal, and in some areas can be effective and safe. In these cases evidence has shown to be effective in eliminating the threat without killing the animal. Especially against smaller nuisance animals. The legalities still remain the same as if you were shooting with normal ammo. Blanks can sometimes be effective here as well. It works well with hogs.

I personally don’t use less then lethal ammo at all for any self defense and protection of any and all life of myself other humans or my pets or farm animals. The legalities remain the same. So if it’s legal to shoot, I’m shooting with the real stuff.

I do use less then lethal ammo, rubber balls. And pepper balls, against smaller nuisance animals when they are in my yard. I prefer not to kills them, and it does get them to leave. However, if they become a major nuisance, I will end their life. I have had to kill a couple of hogs. And a couple of coons.

I have written this for food for thought. I am not a lawyer. Every state, county, and city have different rules. So I would contact a lawyer in your area for further information. If anything the laws for less then lethal ammo will be stricter then what I have said, not more lenient.
 
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1) Anybody who loads a gun for serious social work with "less lethal" has been listening to Joe Biden too much.

2) Back in the Dream Time the neighbors across the street allowed their dogs to be a neighborhood nuisance. (My next door neighbor swore vendetta on one of their dogs when it took a dump in his kid's wagon.) Calling the Sheriff was an exercise in futility, but they kept telling to do it. SO - as we were eating breakfast before departing for work/school across the street let their poodle out and it ran directly into my front yard, spun around a couple of times and prepared to drop a deuce. I had prepared for this by removing the screen and placing a .22 revolver loaded with birdshot next to the window. I opened the window and fired.
The dog split. The neighbor said she was calling the cops. We left. Omitting the hilarious details, I was found not guilty of cruelty to animals but it wasn't worth the heartburn. (Somehow, the prosecutor's witnesses had the wrong time on their notices and got there as things were wrapping up.) We moved right after that, but I imagine the fellow next door took out the one that defiled his kid's wagon.
 

thorborg

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Myself, as enticed by Bill Jordan many years ago, have produced and used "Non lethal " ammo in endeavoring to lower cost and extend practice range time via indoor use or close proximity to others by using easily made hard wax projectiles in our hand loads. This was of course well before Biden became a bonified turd idiot. Also, I'm sure not to to Biden's liking, this was so we could better hit the bad guy with thee real stuff.:) Even slightly excited, I don't think Biden (or most others) could hit a kneecap from even 10 feet as he now recommends, What happened to his scary scatter gun he was touting.
 

SKN

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Years ago when I travelled widely for work, leaving my wife at home, she wasn’t comfortable in the beginning with using deadly physical force. So I outfitted her HD Rem 870 with a OC dispenser, and also taught her to load the mag tube with 12ga bean bag rounds last to give her a less lethal option out of the barrel first. In pic of R side SpeedFeed stock has LL (white) in ammo sleeve, in pic of L side OC dispenser is attached to front of foreend; trigger is push button with safety cap, stream is effective to 15-18ft, good for 4-5 bursts of 2-3secs. She eventually became more comfortable with the idea of having to use deadly force as a last resort, and more proficient with her handgun.

21E1A004-D090-44C3-BB9D-776866517DC3.jpeg 7020C705-96D5-41FB-81A0-8DF04EFC2193.jpeg
 
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albin25

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I train constantly to appear like a shaky old geezer. I have an old walker in the garage to help "sell" it..
....that way it's believable if tell the cops that I non-lethally aimed for the bad guy's legs, but shot him in the nose! :s0092:
HINT; take down your marksmanship awards and trophies before the authorities arrive.

(it also works to get someone to clean my gutters or move an old fridge out of the basement)
 
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gmerkt

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I'm thinking that being shot with non-lethal ammo still leaves the issue of being shot. So is still the basis for a civil lawsuit. So there isn't much gain for a private citizen in that way. And for serious self defense, you wouldn't be using non-lethal anyway. Agree it's mostly a tool for police forces, gives the politicians something to come across with as a more civilized way to contain mayhem.

Yes to lethal eradication of raccoons.
 
OP
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Years ago when I travelled widely for work, leaving my wife at home, she wasn’t comfortable in the beginning with using deadly physical force. So I outfitted her HD Rem 870 with a OC dispenser, and also taught her to load the mag tube with 12ga bean bag rounds last to give her a less lethal option out of the barrel first. In pic of R side SpeedFeed stock has LL (white) in ammo sleeve, in pic of L side OC dispenser is attached to front of foreend; trigger is push button with safety cap, stream is effective to 15-18ft, good for 4-5 bursts of 2-3secs. She eventually became more comfortable with the idea of having to use deadly force as a last resort, and more proficient with her handgun.

View attachment 766300 View attachment 766301
Nice looking shotguns, however, it’s good she didn’t have to shoot. The problem with less then lethal, is that it won’t always scare someone off or keep them from using deadly force on you. I have seen someone hit with multiple shots of less then lethal and it not stop them, they kept coming.
 
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I'm thinking that being shot with non-lethal ammo still leaves the issue of being shot. So is still the basis for a civil lawsuit. So there isn't much gain for a private citizen in that way. And for serious self defense, you wouldn't be using non-lethal anyway. Agree it's mostly a tool for police forces, gives the politicians something to come across with as a more civilized way to contain mayhem.

Yes to lethal eradication of raccoons.
That’s the point I was making. Criminally and Civilly your still held to the same standards. It doesn’t matter to the judge, or jury iron prosecutor if the ammo was less then lethal or not.

It also doesn’t always stop the threat as well. If you aren’t stopping the threat, then your shots aren’t counting or doing any good.
 

WillametteWill

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Okay, lots of issues here. First and foremost is the distinction between "less than lethal" and "less lethal". Less than lethal means it is NOT lethal (normally anyway). Less lethal means that it still has a possibility of being lethal, just not always. This is the simple version. If you shoot someone with a bean bag it can still very possibly be lethal or cause great bodily injury (seen people lose eyes). This means you better have been justified in using real ammo against the threat. This is completely different from the use of pepper spray and tasers.

Police use completely different guns for bean bags / rubber bullets. They are a different color and everyone needs to know they are being used so people don't start shooting real bullets. There are very specific rules of engagement.

If you are in an encounter and don't think you can use lethal force but use a firearm with some other type of non/less lethal ammo and the person shoots back, YOU caused this. Period. YOU escalated the force to deadly because a "reasonable person" (the standard we will be judged by) will agree that you brought a gun to a non-gun fight. The other party does not need to wait and see that it is only a rubber bullet before they can shoot back.

NEVER mix real ammo and less lethal ammo in the same firearm. This is fraught with peril.

Police receive very specific training in less lethal / less than lethal application. Distance, shot placement, victim information, etc. are all part of the training. If you do not have this, along with updated training as the laws and best practices change, and it is a perishable skill, plan on spending considerable time in prison if your use goes awry.

I'm a huge advocate for those who carry (and home defense) to have a not lethal option (pepper spray / taser). But flirting with this other stuff is not likely a best practice.
 
OP
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Okay, lots of issues here. First and foremost is the distinction between "less than lethal" and "less lethal". Less than lethal means it is NOT lethal (normally anyway). Less lethal means that it still has a possibility of being lethal, just not always. This is the simple version. If you shoot someone with a bean bag it can still very possibly be lethal or cause great bodily injury (seen people lose eyes). This means you better have been justified in using real ammo against the threat. This is completely different from the use of pepper spray and tasers.

Police use completely different guns for bean bags / rubber bullets. They are a different color and everyone needs to know they are being used so people don't start shooting real bullets. There are very specific rules of engagement.

If you are in an encounter and don't think you can use lethal force but use a firearm with some other type of non/less lethal ammo and the person shoots back, YOU caused this. Period. YOU escalated the force to deadly because a "reasonable person" (the standard we will be judged by) will agree that you brought a gun to a non-gun fight. The other party does not need to wait and see that it is only a rubber bullet before they can shoot back.

NEVER mix real ammo and less lethal ammo in the same firearm. This is fraught with peril.

Police receive very specific training in less lethal / less than lethal application. Distance, shot placement, victim information, etc. are all part of the training. If you do not have this, along with updated training as the laws and best practices change, and it is a perishable skill, plan on spending considerable time in prison if your use goes awry.

I'm a huge advocate for those who carry (and home defense) to have a not lethal option (pepper spray / taser). But flirting with this other stuff is not likely a best practice.
Exactly the point that I was trying to make, no matter if your using less lethal, or less than lethal ammo. The rules of legal engagement don’t change for a civilians use in a firearm. Pepper spray, taser is still different then pepper balls, rubber bullets, bean bags, wax slugs etc out of a normal firearm.
 

SKN

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I agree that there’s no reason, in a public environment or venue, for a citizen to burden themself with the complex and disadvantageous decision to use LL or LTL. In my previous post the remedy at that time for my wife in a home defense situation was to provide her with options she was comfortable with. I think that distinction makes moot whether you shoot a home invader(s) with one type of ammo or another and in terms of mixing ammunition in a firearm because I know that doing so can be catastrophic for a LE user. Not the case at that time where the facts would have been: forced entry into a occupied dwelling at night and whose sole occupant was a woman of small stature.
 
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Since your state of mind is a salient factor shooting to wound or using "less (than) lethal" kit (and being stupid enough to say so before you talk to your lawyer) could be used against you, as in you didn't believe lethal force to be justified so why did you shoot at all? No sane person wants to shoot or kill somebody, but lethal force is just that - lethal - and lethality can't be mitigated when using a gun in self defense.
If it ain't worth shooting them in the chest/head, then don't even think about introducing a gun to the situation.
 
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Since your state of mind is a salient factor shooting to wound or using "less (than) lethal" kit (and being stupid enough to say so before you talk to your lawyer) could be used against you, as in you didn't believe lethal force to be justified so why did you shoot at all? No sane person wants to shoot or kill somebody, but lethal force is just that - lethal - and lethality can't be mitigated when using a gun in self defense.
If it ain't worth shooting them in the chest/head, then don't even think about introducing a gun to the situation.
Eaxctly, I couldn’t have said it better. The same thing exists when using a firearm to kill a dangerous animal. While killing some animals won’t get you into trouble killing even if it’s not self defense. Killing other animals except in a self defense situation is extremely illegal, or at least without a license/permit to do so.

For many people self defense considerations include self defense of animals. While someone in downtown Dallas may never need to worry about animals. Someone in the back country of nature sadly probably does.
 
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1) The animals most dangerous to humans are feral dogs. They don't fear people like truly wild animals do, and they typically travel in packs. I recall a news article some time back about dingoes attacking school kids waiting for the bus in gun-free rural Australia.

2) Thinking about it a leg/pelvic shot could be justified if you thought you were dealing with body armor, but that isn't shooting to wound.
 

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