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What a crock! Steal a persons gun... then to be compliant with alphabet policies you add the stolen firearm to your ledger and require a BGC to return stolen property to the owner?????

WTAF!!??

I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. The alphabet rescinding the FFL's license for dealing in stolen firearms. 🤔 :s0140:
 
. . . . if you have personal firearms and live on base you are required to register them with the installation and have them stored in the armory on base. You can only check them in and out while the armory is open. . . .
Prior to my 1989 retirement from active duty, military personnel (and their family members) who reside in family quarters on the installation could store lawfully owned firearms in quarters, but only if registered with the installation's chief law enforcement officer; that registration definitely required a serial number. Installation commanders had authority to tighten those restrictions, but not to relax them.

And there is no conceal carry on base unless your CID.
During my years of service, AFOSI agents, like CID agents, routinely carried concealed anytime while on-base, but only their issue handgun. At one time, the issue handgun could only be carried off-base during official duty, but that restriction relaxed to "discretionary carry" a few years before I retired.

When off-duty and off-base in CONUS, I often carried my personally-owned handgun concealed (after the local police chief issued a concealed carry permit to me). However, the bright red line at that time was "off-duty and off-base"; OSI prohibited agents from carrying a personal firearm concealed anywhere within the base perimeter or anywhere else while on official duty. That restriction, which cost some agents their career, has since been replaced by an approved list of handguns that agents may purchase and carry concealed regardless of on- or off-duty status, and anywhere a LEO can lawfully carry a firearm.
 
Prior to my 1989 retirement from active duty
Longer ago, in 1969, if you lived in the barracks in CONUS, I remember personal weapon(s) were required to be registered with the provost marshal and stored in the unit arms room. This was before the days of ghost guns, so a handgun without a serial number wasn't an issue at that time.
 
I didn't read anything about carrying concealed in the story. Reading his tweet, he was asked to show his firearm so he went to his car to retrieve it. I wouldn't think twice about retrieving it like the young man. He was looking to purchase a holster and probably thought the clerk wanted it for fitment.
 
I didn't read the article but what are gun owners supposed to do if a customer has an unserialized gun? Does atf direct them to confiscate the gun? I have no clue what they are supposed to do and not condoning the gun shop, but I'm just curious what atf has told gun stores they have to do.

I could see atf doing sting operations where they do exactly this, then take the gun store's license. ATF under biden admin's direction seem to be taking down as many gun stores as they can through minor violations. Gun stores may be on guard for stuff like this?
 
I didn't read the article but what are gun owners supposed to do if a customer has an unserialized gun? Does atf direct them to confiscate the gun? I have no clue what they are supposed to do and not condoning the gun shop, but I'm just curious what atf has told gun stores they have to do.

I could see atf doing sting operations where they do exactly this, then take the gun store's license. ATF under biden admin's direction seem to be taking down as many gun stores as they can through minor violations. Gun stores may be on guard for stuff like this?
Not supposed to do anything... unless the firearm is entered into their books or being transferred. They have zero authority to seize a firearm in ANY situation. If they are aware of any type of violation then their only obligation is to report it to the proper authority. Period!

They didn't even have the authority to demand the guy present ID. There was no firearm transaction occurring. The guy should have just told them to stuff it and immediately call police to report the theft.

They certainly aren't the first or the last DA FFL that doesn't even understand the laws surrounding their own business. They simply stole the guys firearm by deception.
 
The statement of what occurred from the LGS, per the article:
"The individual involved in the situation was under the age of 21 with an Illinois state ID in possession of a complete unserialized handgun. Concerns were raised about the situation, and the ATF was contacted immediately for further guidance on the situation. The ATF told Shooters Den LLC to hold it for the time being until advised otherwise. The ATF has cleared the situation and has allowed us to release the firearm back to the owner, and the situation has been passed on to the proper authorities. The owner has been contacted regarding the status of his p80 pistol and has yet to retrieve it."
AmmoLand News attempted to verify the gun shop's story with the ATF but did not receive a response confirming or denying the claims.
Yes, the LGS screwed up - they had no authority to seize the firearm. They should have known the limits of what they can or cannot do, and if there were concerns about a customer, they should have reached out to local LE for assistance.

However, if this statement is true, then the ATF provided incorrect guidance and instructions to the FFL. The ATF has been going out of its way to penalize and shut down LGS over the slightest mistakes, so I can understand why a LGS would want to seek guidance in that specific situation. And the ATF then instructing them to seize the firearm put them in a difficult spot - if they do they have to enter the firearm into their books, if they don't they may get audited or shut down by the ATF for failing to follow their guidance.

I would be curious to know how other FFLs perceive this situation. Does this sound like malice on the part of the FFL, or just a poor reaction to a confusing situation? Never been a FFL, so not sure what resources are available to them to help navigate potentially complicated legal situations.

This is yet another reason why our firearm laws need to be dramatically simplified. The limbo period for 18-21 year olds is stupid and creates far too much confusion. Once a person is legally an adult they should have all the rights and responsibilities of an adult.
 
Waiting for the resident ATF apologists to show up.. :rolleyes:

Also from the same story; it seems the ATF instructed the gun shop FFL to serialize the P80 firearm, thus making it impossible to federally transfer it to the rightful owner? Was my reading correct on that?
Yeah. But that was likely since the FFL took possession. If they had it overnight then they were required to record it in the ledger. A serial is then required, but I don't think it was for the sole purpose of denying the return of the firearm. Just following policy that just so happens to screw the victim over even harder... as if they would care(?)
 
I'd be willing to bet this gun store goes out of business because of this dumb a$$ stunt. 🤦🏻‍♂️ wither they were right or wrong. I'd give them a year and a half tops

I hope that store goes under, just after being sued and the employee is jailed for theft of a firearm.
I'd be surprised if the store went under. I know of too many gun owners who have no problems with denying a currently serving military person the right to possess handguns if under 21 :rolleyes:
Jabs aside:
My question is, what right does the ATF have to require modifying someones lawful property?
Wild guess; but Final Frame and Receiver Rule?
 
Prior to my 1989 retirement from active duty, military personnel (and their family members) who reside in family quarters on the installation could store lawfully owned firearms in quarters, but only if registered with the installation's chief law enforcement officer; that registration definitely required a serial number. Installation commanders had authority to tighten those restrictions, but not to relax them.


During my years of service, AFOSI agents, like CID agents, routinely carried concealed anytime while on-base, but only their issue handgun. At one time, the issue handgun could only be carried off-base during official duty, but that restriction relaxed to "discretionary carry" a few years before I retired.

When off-duty and off-base in CONUS, I often carried my personally-owned handgun concealed (after the local police chief issued a concealed carry permit to me). However, the bright red line at that time was "off-duty and off-base"; OSI prohibited agents from carrying a personal firearm concealed anywhere within the base perimeter or anywhere else while on official duty. That restriction, which cost some agents their career, has since been replaced by an approved list of handguns that agents may purchase and carry concealed regardless of on- or off-duty status, and anywhere a LEO can lawfully carry a firearm.
Same. I should have clarified living in barracks vs. on base housing.

Cause in the military your maturity is evaluated on the relationship you're in…… makes sense.
 
Did he have to take the gun to get a holster / magazines? I've bought holsters with having the firearm with me and had no issue with fit.
With 80's it's almost mandatory since not many holster makers list 80% model size compatibility. A lot more trial and error is involved. I'm sure it never even occurred to him in his wildest dreams that taking his legally owned handgun into a gun shop would ever create any kind of issue.

I know I surely wouldn't, but I also wouldn't hand my firearm to an employee... and certainly wouldn't have left the shop until police arrived if an employee was attempting to steal it.
 

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