National New addition to form 4473

[Yarome]

Whether it's you punching it into a computer, the shop punching it into a computer, or the person on the other end of the phone punching it into a computer…your data is being digitized one way or another.

I'm aware, but the FFL, NICS and in the case of Oregon... OSP have guidelines and "theoretical" oversight on how that data is handled and "protected'. It's unvoidable to some degree, but if everyone is doing their job and following the laws and proceedures it provides some level of protection since, again "theoretically", the only document that remains is on paper and in the possession of the FFL.

My qualm is 2 part. Using a private 3rd party service company "outside of the loop" that aren't govenerd by the same rules, regulations or oversight. The other being maintaining the 4473 in digital form.. say on the FFL's computer... gives it an inherit vulnerability to be hacked, easily disseminated or stolen. It's nice to believe that all FFL are reputable and employees are trustworthy, but walking out with a thumb drive containing purchase information is a lot easier than walking out with an armload of paper... and there is a clear and lucritive market for consumer data.

I agree it probably doesn't make a massive difference, but I'm just always about minimizing risk wherever you can. You never know how your data may be used or compromised in the name of digital convenience.

IE., Smart home devices. What a convenience... until people discovered it gave power companies and the like control to manipulate the settings without your knowledge or consent.

Unavoidable is unavoidable, but if it's not required I'm just one that will always prefer to "not".

 

[Hueco]

I'm aware, but the FFL, NICS and in the case of Oregon... OSP have guidelines and "theoretical" oversight on how that data is handled and "protected'. It's unvoidable to some degree, but if everyone is doing their job and following the laws and proceedures it provides some level of protection since, again "theoretically", the only document that remains is on paper and in the possession of the FFL.

My qualm is 2 part. Using a private 3rd party service company "outside of the loop" that aren't govenerd by the same rules, regulations or oversight. The other being maintaining the 4473 in digital form.. say on the FFL's computer... gives it an inherit vulnerability to be hacked, easily disseminated or stolen. It's nice to believe that all FFL are reputable and employees are trustworthy, but walking out with a thumb drive containing purchase information is a lot easier than walking out with an armload of paper... and there is a clear and lucritive market for consumer data.

I agree it probably doesn't make a massive difference, but I'm just always about minimizing risk wherever you can. You never know how your data may be used or compromised in the name of digital convenience.

IE., Smart home devices. What a convenience... until people discovered it gave power companies and the like control to manipulate the settings without your knowledge or consent.

Unavoidable is unavoidable, but if it's not required I'm just one that will always prefer to "not".

I was thinking about that - the hackability of each use case. A small local FFL using on prem software that transmits straight to the Fed and then prints out forms for long term local storage would be easiest to secure. Some FFL using a SAAS modeled company…that company would hold records (potentially) for thousands and would be a sweet target for a hack…

 

[ScatPackLife]

Here is a problem:

"Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s), or ammunition, for sale or other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m), or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant alien exception?​

I don't know...I'm filling this out on a tablet so I don't know what questions 21(c)-(m) are or what 21 n.1 says??? If you are on a tablet it is requiring you to GUESS on a question that can put you in jail for 10 years. I've filled out a few 4473s but this is an unacceptable question when in tablet form. I get that you should be able to review your answers at the end, but still, you cannot lawfully answer a question that is incomplete. And the seller cannot "help" the person filling out the form.

Those having tablets would help their customers by placing a hard copy on the counter next to the tablet since the best and the brightest at the alphabet agencies did not do their jobs. I filled out a 4473 the first day of the new form and the gent a Sportsmans said everyone was confused by those questions. Shocked I tell you.

The exact thing happened to me at SW in PDX. I asked the employee that was helping me with my BGC what the hell it meant and what 21(c)-(m) and 21.n.1 were and he said he couldn't help me. I asked "you're not allowed to explain a form that you handed to me? I thought that was part of your job!" And he said he couldn't talk to me about anything on the form. Another employee overheard us talking and kindly explained what the question meant. The guy helping me wasn't being a jerk, he was just being ignorant.

But he did tell me a story about how he denied an attempted straw purchase. Lady was trying to buy a gun for her (assumably prohibited) boyfriend. So these forms do work to a small extent. Guess the boyfriend should have gone over form 4473 before they went to the gun shop. Also, why does it seam like at every sportsman's warehouse gun counter there are three associates and then when it gets busy two of them disappear and then the wait time gets extensive? Sorry, off topic.

 

[2A Patriot LLC]

It's on the paper one but not every shop has the new one

I'm a FFL. All dealers were required to start using the new form on April 1st. When you call in a NICS check the recording even states they won't enter your background check unless you are using the new form. The addition of the city limit question was one of the changes, along with a few others.

 

[ma96782]

All of the new questions on 4473 are unnecessary. Criminals will just lie. The system isn't 100% reliable anyway.

Awwwww.......Come On Man.
BGCs before ANY/ALL gun purchases will solve the problem.








Is that you Brandon?

Aloha, Mark

 

[ma96782]

All dealers were required to start using the new form on April 1st.

Hummmm........how appropriate being that it was April Fools' Day.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Gunbuggy]

They only need three.

1. Male
2. Female
3. It

I always figured that was a trap to keep the firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill. I mean that's the only reason you'd ever check the 3rd box right, mentally delusional?

 

[Knobgoblin]

I always figured that was a trap to keep the firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill. I mean that's the only reason you'd ever check the 3rd box right, mentally delusional?

 

[The Heretic]

Dealing with a 3 letter federal agency and you're confused? INCONCEIVABLE!!!

The one that confused me today was:

• 21b: "Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition, for sale of other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m) or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant exception?"
  

A bunch of legalese that I had to read five times before I guessed that I should answer No.

Apparently I guessed correctly.

 

[CZP07]

The one that confused me today was:

• 21b: "Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition, for sale of other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m) or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant exception?"

A bunch of legalese that I had to read five times before I guessed that I should answer No.

Apparently I guessed correctly.

yeh.. thats a stupid one. I was advised by folks at a few places to leave question 21 blank.

 

[sikhed]

yeh.. thats a stupid one. I was advised by folks at a few places to leave question 21 blank.

...who does not fall within a nonimmigrant exception?...
"Not"
"non-immigrant"
"exception"
Thats a triple negative just in that one part of one sentence!
You need a lawyer, and a decipher'er just to fill out the form

 

[The Heretic]

yeh.. thats a stupid one. I was advised by folks at a few places to leave question 21 blank.

well, I figured I don't intend to turn around and sell the gun to anybody whatsoever, so I answered "no"

 

[MichaelH]

I think the "my data must be protected at all costs" folks tend to have an inflated sense of self-importance. They have your data. If you're targeted it's just dumb bad luck and often one's failure to exercise reasonable caution when navigating the internet and inbound communications from the comfort of home. The volume of brazen junk-mail phishing attempts indicate that people must fall for it sometimes.

 

[monkeybutler]

I think the "my data must be protected at all costs" folks tend to have an inflated sense of self-importance. They have your data. If you're targeted it's just dumb bad luck and often one's failure to exercise reasonable caution when navigating the internet and inbound communications from the comfort of home. The volume of brazen junk-mail phishing attempts indicate that people must fall for it sometimes.

Dude, they are the vanguard of the resistance against evil. They are extremely important. That is why the government is coming to put them in camps. It has nothing to do with a special combination of vanity and vapidity that makes them think they are the focus of everything.

 

[R3dundantC]

"Question 10 is revised: The transferee/buyer is now asked to answer whether they "Reside in City Limits?" regarding their residence address. For example, if a transferee lists their residence city/state as Phoenix, Arizona but they actually reside outside of the city, they will answer "no" to this item."

It is pretty clear why they asking, to understand if someone is subject or not to municipal laws around guns. If anything it is a way for someone not in city limits but with a city listed as mailing address to avoid certain restrictions, whereas without it everyone supplying a city address will be assumed subject to its laws.

It's still irrelevent. Just because you live somewhere doesn't mean the firearm is being stored there.

 

[uberguy]

Just another opportunity for them to catch in a lie (i.e. You making a mistake.)

So if I answer YES but actually reside outside city limits, I get free meals and healthcare in a federal penitentiary for up to 10 years?

 

[Longwalkhome]

Bought one last week and told I was around 5k on the list. Ffl said 3+ weeks to wait for an instant check

Ffl had to explain the changes on the 4473 and it looked like there was a possible nail in a coffin if you bought ammo.

Ffl said that part was to hang folks buying ammo and sending it to kali. Apparently kali has a bc to buy ammo so if you send family ammo it's and offense???

Over the decades the government has changed forms to control us, that's what they do. I bet one day what you say on the net will keep you from buying a gun, something simple and natural that can be spun into a threat.

You watch, the next question added will be " have you ever spoken out against government?"

 

[GWS]

So if I answer YES but actually reside outside city limits, I get free meals and healthcare in a federal penitentiary for up to 10 years?

Not if your last name is Biden>