National New addition to form 4473

[TTSX]

All of the new questions on 4473 are unnecessary. Criminals will just lie. The system isn't 100% reliable anyway.

And is it just me or is 21b redundant?

(21b: Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition, for sale of other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m) or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant exception)

That's the point. You're being asked the same question multiple ways with different correct answers, presumably to catch liars and criminals in the act?

Frankly, if they never add another "yes" answer, the form gets filled out the same way every time anyway.. yes, no no no no no.....

 

[OrPackrat]

There is a nice new form now, I don't like it...

 

[Yarome]

The way I understand it... the alterior purpose of the question is in order to aid the FFL and alphabet to report you to the proper authority with jurisdiction where you reside.

Now that a BGC "delay" or "deny" requires FFL's to report you to LE, they need to know where you live so they know who to report you to (IE, which city or county LE office).

With the new fed reporting rule, a delayed BGC status update is put on hold until the LE report number is submitted.

 

[monkeybutler]

The way I understand it... the alterior purpose of the question is in order to aid the FFL and alphabet to report you to the proper authority with jurisdiction where you reside.

Right. So they can report you. For chewing gum on the subway, a lovely ulternative to driving.

 

[WillametteWill]

Here is a problem:

"Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s), or ammunition, for sale or other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m), or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant alien exception?​

I don't know...I'm filling this out on a tablet so I don't know what questions 21(c)-(m) are or what 21 n.1 says??? If you are on a tablet it is requiring you to GUESS on a question that can put you in jail for 10 years. I've filled out a few 4473s but this is an unacceptable question when in tablet form. I get that you should be able to review your answers at the end, but still, you cannot lawfully answer a question that is incomplete. And the seller cannot "help" the person filling out the form.

Those having tablets would help their customers by placing a hard copy on the counter next to the tablet since the best and the brightest at the alphabet agencies did not do their jobs. I filled out a 4473 the first day of the new form and the gent a Sportsmans said everyone was confused by those questions. Shocked I tell you.

 

[nwslopoke]

I don't know...I'm filling this out on a tablet so I don't know what questions 21(c)-(m) are or what 21 n.1 says???

Curious. If you fill the 4473 on a tablet, the form is only digitized, how does it work for the FFLs long term storage and does it ease in a registry whether it's accidentally hacked or downloaded by ATF? I believed the purpose to keep a paper form in this digital age was for prevention, more or less.

 

[cameron25]

Curious. If you fill the 4473 on a tablet, the form is only digitized, how does it work for the FFLs long term storage and does it ease in a registry whether it's accidentally hacked or downloaded by ATF? I believed the purpose to keep a paper form in this digital age was for prevention, more or less.

I have had a couple customers ask me this and i understand the skepticism. I use fastbound for my form 4473's. Idk about others but once the form is filled out completely on their site, you are required to print it and it erases from the site. So the storage of the customers info is hard copy only. That's how the service I use works at least

 

[sikhed]

Curious. If you fill the 4473 on a tablet, the form is only digitized, how does it work for the FFLs long term storage and does it ease in a registry whether it's accidentally hacked or downloaded by ATF? I believed the purpose to keep a paper form in this digital age was for prevention, more or less.

How can they validate the signature on the digital copy?
My finger signature on the tablet looked like it was signed by a retarded 10 year old versus the proper signature I put on paper...
Just sayin.

 

[Yarome]

How can they validate the signature on the digital copy?
My finger signature on the tablet looked like it was signed by a retarded 10 year old versus the proper signature I put on paper...
Just sayin.

With that set up... the temptation to throw a zinger is almost too great.... but I'll keep my mouth shut. You owe me!

That would be my question too. Not only can it not be proven to be your signature, the FFL can't even compare it to any official piece of ID to visually validdate it either.

Makes you wonder though... do those tablets have cameras??

 

[arakboss]

Here is a problem:

"Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s), or ammunition, for sale or other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m), or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant alien exception?​

I don't know...I'm filling this out on a tablet so I don't know what questions 21(c)-(m) are or what 21 n.1 says??? If you are on a tablet it is requiring you to GUESS on a question that can put you in jail for 10 years. I've filled out a few 4473s but this is an unacceptable question when in tablet form. I get that you should be able to review your answers at the end, but still, you cannot lawfully answer a question that is incomplete. And the seller cannot "help" the person filling out the form.

Those having tablets would help their customers by placing a hard copy on the counter next to the tablet since the best and the brightest at the alphabet agencies did not do their jobs. I filled out a 4473 the first day of the new form and the gent a Sportsmans said everyone was confused by those questions. Shocked I tell you.

Very good point about only seeing one question at a time on tablets.

 

[bcp]

If you are not buying it "for sale or other disposition," then it doesn't matter who those people are.

Bruce

 

[cameron25]

How can they validate the signature on the digital copy?
My finger signature on the tablet looked like it was signed by a retarded 10 year old versus the proper signature I put on paper...
Just sayin.

Well personally I have them sign it using a stylus so that helps I'm sure. Im not using a tablet either so not sure whats going on with not being able to see all the questions on tablets? I can scroll up or down to look at the form, it looks exactly like the paper 4473. If we're using their CHL or OR DL I just confirm it's really them in the picture. The background check won't go through if something isn't right on the ID used anyway. I'm a small kitchen table FFL too, so it's not like I'm dealing with a high volume of folks. I know almost all my customers, or have gotten to know them. I get it, lots of folks are old school and/or are very concerned about privacy. I've found using fastbound to be much easier/faster than filling out a paper copy, plus it helps me stay organized.

 

[Yarome]

Well personally I have them sign it using a stylus so that helps I'm sure. Im not using a tablet either so not sure whats going on with not being able to see all the questions on tablets? I can scroll up or down to look at the form, it looks exactly like the paper 4473. If we're using their CHL or OR DL I just confirm it's really them in the picture. The background check won't go through if something isn't right on the ID used anyway. I'm a small kitchen table FFL too, so it's not like I'm dealing with a high volume of folks. I know almost all my customers, or have gotten to know them. I get it, lots of folks are old school and/or are very concerned about privacy. I've found using fastbound to be much easier/faster than filling out a paper copy, plus it helps me stay organized.

Things change. That's a constant, but I guess I'm one of those that doesn't like anything being transmitted electronically unless it's absolutely required. Using a service like that... data going back and forth through multiple server hops... and "trusting" it's deleted from the services servers... when knowing as a general rule that nothing in digital form is every really "deleted".

A piece of paper between me and an FFL I'm standing in front of and knowing that 4473 is in a physical location under his control is much less offensive than transmitting it to parties unknown across the internet.

I realize I'm older school and "progress" happens, but just realizing I'm probably not the only one that feels like that, and even if it takes a little more of an inconvenience to do paper, some might appreciate an FFL that's willing to do that.

Not criticizing. Just sayin... until all of my generation has turned to worm poop... maybe something to bear in mind.

 

[titsonritz]

They got 52 genders on there yet?

 

[arakboss]

They got 52 genders on there yet?

They only need three.

1. Male
2. Female
3. It

 

[cameron25]

Things change. That's a constant, but I guess I'm one of those that doesn't like anything being transmitted electronically unless it's absolutely required. Using a service like that... data going back and forth through multiple server hops... and "trusting" it's deleted from the services servers... when knowing as a general rule that nothing in digital form is every really "deleted".

A piece of paper between me and an FFL I'm standing in front of and knowing that 4473 is in a physical location under his control is much less offensive than transmitting it to parties unknown across the internet.

I realize I'm older school and "progress" happens, but just realizing I'm probably not the only one that feels like that, and even if it takes a little more of an inconvenience to do paper, some might appreciate an FFL that's willing to do that.

Not criticizing. Just sayin... until all of my generation has turned to worm poop... maybe something to bear in mind.

Yep I understand, as I mentioned. So far I've had one single customer that is of that mindset and I obliged him

 

[sikhed]

They got 52 genders on there yet?

No.
And I think the genders recognized is in the low 100s now.
There's 3 gender choices on the form 4473 now. Just like the new "real id" drivers licenses:
Male
Female
Non binary.
(wish there was a box with a blank line next to it, we could have fun filling that out, but the feds don't possess a since of humor)

 

[Yarome]

There's 3 gender choices on the form 4473 now. Just like the new "real id" drivers licenses:
Male
Female
Non binary.
(wish there was a box with a blank line next to it, we could have fun filling that out, but the feds don't possess a since of humor)

Not that this whole "what am I" BS couldn't be more rediculous... ID is supposed to have a physical description for a 2nd party to assess you for identification purposes, right? Not knowing what foofoo might be floating around in the other persons brain the question becomes moot to have on your DL if the if the options are going to be male, female, and "I'm not telling you!".

I might just change mine to "I'm not telling you" just to mess with the next person that needs to see my ID.

 

[Hueco]

Things change. That's a constant, but I guess I'm one of those that doesn't like anything being transmitted electronically unless it's absolutely required. Using a service like that... data going back and forth through multiple server hops... and "trusting" it's deleted from the services servers... when knowing as a general rule that nothing in digital form is every really "deleted".

A piece of paper between me and an FFL I'm standing in front of and knowing that 4473 is in a physical location under his control is much less offensive than transmitting it to parties unknown across the internet.

Whether it's you punching it into a computer, the shop punching it into a computer, or the person on the other end of the phone punching it into a computer…your data is being digitized one way or another.

 

[GWS]

That page doesn't explain it, it just announces it. The answer to Question 10 still doesn't go to NICS, leaving the question open of why it's on the form.

Just another opportunity for them to catch in a lie (i.e. You making a mistake.)