Need a refresher on rifle loading...

[daved20319]

Specifically, determining OAL. I built a budget "precision" bolt rifle early this year, but then got so caught up with handguns and loading for them that I haven't done anything with it since last May. Well, I've now done about all I can do with the pistol loads until I can get to the range, so it's time to start back up with the rifle. For those interested, the rifle is a Savage 12 FV, a Cabela's exclusive model, in .223. So I can pretty much ignore any recommended COAL's in the loading manuals, as they're all limited to AR mag length.

So my process is as follows. I pick 5 bullets at random from the box, set each in the Hornady OAL gage, slide it in the chamber, give the bullet rod a light tap, then lock it down and remove it. I'm measuring OAL with a Hornady bullet comparator, so my OAL's are to ogive, not bullet tip. For the most part, I'm getting pretty consistent measurements, typical variation is no more than .002", and I suspect some of that could be variations in how hard I tap the rod. So now I have a list of max OAL's for several bullets in my rifle. How far do I back off the lands for my initial loads? And do I use the longest OAL I came up with as my starting point, or the shortest? Sorry if that last seems like a silly question, but my brain is having an argument with itself on the logic there . Anything else I need to keep in mind? Thanks.

Dave

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[No_Regerts]

Due to slight ogive variances, I start at .02 off the lands with cup/core bullets if the magazine permits it. With monolithics, I start at .05. I haven't used many VLD type bullets, but from what I understand, they typically yield the best accuracy when seated very close to the lands. Again, they still have to fit in the magazine regardless unless you shoot it single shot. Not sure how long the Savage magazine is.

 

[daved20319]

Due to slight ogive variances, I start at .02 off the lands with cup/core bullets if the magazine permits it. With monolithics, I start at .05. I haven't used many VLD type bullets, but from what I understand, they typically yield the best accuracy when seated very close to the lands. Again, they still have to fit in the magazine regardless unless you shoot it single shot. Not sure how long the Savage magazine is.

Thank you. No worries on mag length, I'm running it as a single shot, this is almost strictly a bench gun, and the action is plenty long enough for anything I could stuff into a .223 case . Bullets on hand are either SMK's or TMK's, although I do have one Hornady ELD, and a 62 gr. bonded soft-point just for giggles. IF the latter will stabilize in my barrel, and give me decent accuracy, it might be a good choice for varmints or plinking. Later.

Dave

 

[No_Regerts]

Thank you. No worries on mag length, I'm running it as a single shot, this is almost strictly a bench gun, and the action is plenty long enough for anything I could stuff into a .223 case . Bullets on hand are either SMK's or TMK's, although I do have one Hornady ELD, and a 62 gr. bonded soft-point just for giggles. IF the latter will stabilize in my barrel, and give me decent accuracy, it might be a good choice for varmints or plinking. Later.

Dave

What twist?

To answer another part of your question, I start close to the lands and find a powder charge that yields decent groups, then change OAL to fine tune.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Good suggestions by No Regerts. That rifle has a 1 in 9 twist and should stabilize up to a 69gr. bullet. I was at a turkey shoot before thanksgiving and there was a guy shooting his 12fv .223rem and doing very well. He said it isn't finicky at all. I believe he was shooting some lighter 53 grain v max bullets in his. To answer the op's question in regards to oal and how far off the lands to run the bullets: I generally start and end with .020" off with cup and cores and then adjust my powder charge accordingly. Also like No Regerts said, the mono's will require a further distance off the lands. Sometimes .100" off in the case of the Barnes TSX/TTSX bullets.

 

[Otter]

I would use the shortest OAL as your base. If you go with the longest, you could find some of your reloads are short of the lands while a few are touching or even slightly engaging the lands. If they are all off, (or all slightly engaged) the pressure will be more consistent than if a few are engaged and the rest are not.

For a hunting rifle, I will find the "touch" point and back off .003 inches as my base load. I will then pick three powder charges and reload 3 rounds at .003 off touch, 3 at .008 off and 3 at .013 off at each powder charge. I have found by doing this with 27 test loads I can usually determine the best powder charge and seating depth that results in the best harmonics with that rifle barrel.

 

[bbbass]

To answer the thread title: When loading rifle, pointy end goes outwards.

 

[DizzyJ]

1st off, congrats on the rifle. It'll be a tack driver if you do your part. I've got pretty much the same rifle, same twist.

I usually start about .005" to .010" off the lands, and find and accuracy node with the powder. Then play with bullet seating depth to fine tune. This is with lead jacketed bullets. Solid copper need to be .050" or more off the lands to avoid nasty pressure spikes!

Be sure to watch for pressure signs as you approach the lands. Pressures can spike in a hurry!

My 1:9 twist has no problems stabilizing the 77s out to 1,000 yds. Yours may or may not do that, you'll just have to try some out.

Oh, and the tipped 77gr SMKs shoot lights out! Hope you have the same experience!

 

[thorborg]

Albeit a 1911, my first shot at loading for it I spent some energy working up the perfect length only to get to the range and find I had to back it off almost .080 to work in the magazine (due to the shape of the JHP I had selected)
Bare your magazine in mind as you work up your perfect load.

 

[Goosebrown]

I have exactly that rifle in 223. It is amazing for the price. I didn't have great luck with heavier bullets but I found an amazing sweet spot with 70g burger VLDs. I use the higher end of the load data with H 4895 and get nice clean one hole groups at 100. I would have to dig up me dummy and measure it but i Jane the ogive nestled up against the lands, not backing them off at all. I stopped looking when I tried this combo.

If you have a good place to varmint shoot we should meet up.

 

[po18guy]

As Dizzyj rightly noted, it'll take some range work to find the best distance-to-lands for each bullet weight and brand. Once you know how much freebore there is in the barrel, you can start the process. Opinions vary, but I would start with the bullets set back and slowly move them out, carefully watching for pressure signs. Each barrel likes a different bullet, powder, case and even primer combo. For each barrel, there is a magic combo which will provide some amazing accuracy. If one approaches the journey to that point with hopeful anticipation rather than as a work of drudgery, it makes it all the more pleasing once it is found.

 

[ferret427]

With respect to VLD bullets, there was an old article on the Berger website as well as a couple of other places online, that shooters were seeing excellent results where the bullets were seated far away from the lands, and not just close to/into the rifling as the bullets had been designed.
In my .308 AR, I have tried them seated to mag length, with several thousandths to spare and have gotten good results. Anecdotal, I know, but when the article is published on the manufacturer's site, it is worth noting. I do not remember all of the details, but I believe the jump was more than one would expect by a fair amount and still expect good performance.

 

[DizzyJ]

With respect to VLD bullets, there was an old article on the Berger website as well as a couple of other places online, that shooters were seeing excellent results where the bullets were seated far away from the lands, and not just close to/into the rifling as the bullets had been designed.
In my .308 AR, I have tried them seated to mag length, with several thousandths to spare and have gotten good results. Anecdotal, I know, but when the article is published on the manufacturer's site, it is worth noting. I do not remember all of the details, but I believe the jump was more than one would expect by a fair amount and still expect good performance.

Yes, this is true.

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle |

 

[pharmseller]

I do it backwards from most.

I seat bullets far enough out that they won't chamber, then I work progressively shorter.

Using a sized but unprimed case, I seat a bullet long. I color the bullet with a Sharpie before I chamber the dummy round. When I extract the cartridge I look for the marks made by the lands. I'm looking for a square mark, not too long or too short.

This length represents my max OAL. And yes, I start with the bullets just barely touching (hence the square mark) the lands. If I don't find accuracy here, I know I only have one direction to go.

I like to choose a powder with a 97% or better fill rate at max charge. I'll load a few at varying charges, then shoot them over a chronograph. I have a few acres so I can do this at home. When I see pressure signs (ejector marks, usually) I back off half a grain.

Then comes the seating depth. I'll start at the max, load six, then move .040" shorter, three times. Load six each iteration. This way I have four depths. I find an accuracy node somewhere. At that point I'll go plus or minus .020" to see if I can improve.

An example: notice that nothing changes except the OAL. Start short, because if you find accuracy short you can resize the long ones. Tough to lengthen the short ones.



A little longer



Just a bit longer




I didn't even try the longest cartridges. This method has served me well for years.




P

 

[Goosebrown]

Yes I seat them -.003" in my 6mm. I just started at lite jam in the lands on the 223 and it was so good I never changed.

I may seat some deeper and do more tests. I think my charge is good and I love Berger VLDs in general. Their notes and articles on their site are excellent and honest which is refreshing.

On my 6mm I point my bullets with a whidden bullet pointing die and that makes a big difference, I picked up 1-2 points off that alone. They don't recommend it on the 223s though nor do they advise against it.

 

[pharmseller]

I'm in the process of load development in a 1-8" twist Tikka Superlite in .223 using 80 gr ELD-M bullets. Using my new billet mags from Mountain Tactical I can load waaaaaay out. Kissing the lands is 1.946" from the ogive, or 2.478" OAL.
I'm using Varget and getting 2940 FPS.
Maybe a hair over max, but no pressure signs.




P

 

[DizzyJ]

I'm in the process of load development in a 1-8" twist Tikka Superlite in .223 using 80 gr ELD-M bullets. Using my new billet mags from Mountain Tactical I can load waaaaaay out. Kissing the lands is 1.946" from the ogive, or 2.478" OAL.
I'm using Varget and getting 2940 FPS.
Maybe a hair over max, but no pressure signs.




P

We need to talk. Sounds like an amazing set up!

 

[pharmseller]

50 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip at 2.276" versus 80 grain ELD-M at 2.478".








P

 

[DizzyJ]

50 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip at 2.276" versus 80 grain ELD-M at 2.478".

View attachment 527934

View attachment 527935




P

That's awesome that the magazine allows you to set it that far out!

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I do it backwards from most.

I seat bullets far enough out that they won't chamber, then I work progressively shorter.

Using a sized but unprimed case, I seat a bullet long. I color the bullet with a Sharpie before I chamber the dummy round. When I extract the cartridge I look for the marks made by the lands. I'm looking for a square mark, not too long or too short.

This length represents my max OAL. And yes, I start with the bullets just barely touching (hence the square mark) the lands. If I don't find accuracy here, I know I only have one direction to go.

I like to choose a powder with a 97% or better fill rate at max charge. I'll load a few at varying charges, then shoot them over a chronograph. I have a few acres so I can do this at home. When I see pressure signs (ejector marks, usually) I back off half a grain.

Then comes the seating depth. I'll start at the max, load six, then move .040" shorter, three times. Load six each iteration. This way I have four depths. I find an accuracy node somewhere. At that point I'll go plus or minus .020" to see if I can improve.

An example: notice that nothing changes except the OAL. Start short, because if you find accuracy short you can resize the long ones. Tough to lengthen the short ones.

View attachment 527882

A little longer

View attachment 527883

Just a bit longer

View attachment 527884


I didn't even try the longest cartridges. This method has served me well for years.




P

Good post pharm. What you are doing is finding the accuracy node. You could also do it by not messing with the oal and just finding the right powder charge. Let me demonstrate:

All loads .020" off the lands:

40 grains of powder:


40.5 grains:


41 grains:


Many ways to skin a cat, but I know my way is not going to leave me with a bullet lodged in the lands, when I'm at the range or out hunting...

I load my creedmoor the same way:

This is a savage 12fv by the way. I'm thinking about buying a .223 rem like the OP has. Load development should be a breeze.

One of my last purchases was a stevens 200 22-250. Load it the same way:


.020" off the lands and find the right powder charge. Now days they call it optimum charge wt (OCW). I've been calling it working up the load...
Pharm, I'm actually surprised you haven't shot the moa all day long challenge over at the other place. Looks like your rifles perform well. Just out of curiosity, how do your 10 shot groups look?