National MSNBC Panelist Argues Teachers Might Shoot Black Students If They’re Allowed to Carry Guns

[Nick Burkhardt]

So, you don't believe in the utility and usefulness of lawful concealed carry outside of school? Because that argument is essentially the exact argument that MDA and other gun control groups use when trying to get it shut down.

Do some research into the crime rates and accident rates of lawful concealed carriers and instances of others getting a hold of their guns. For the millions of concealed carriers, those numbers are extremely low. There's zero data to suggest those numbers would increase in schools.

Yep Fear & Loading: Permit Holders Obey Laws Better Than Cops

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

As I said before "You think that there are no guns in schools right now?" While big media is obsessing over the mentally ill man on anti-psychotic drugs who shot up a video game contest, they are silent about the other Jacksonville mass shooting this weekend Police: Gang shooting after Raines High School football game kills 1, injures 2

57 police officers at the game yet still one dead and two wounded.

 

[nwslopoke]

In my risk assessment mind state every extra gun in a school, in a teacher's class is just another chance for a student to get ahold of it and use it.

We hand a swimming pool, automotive shop, power tools, gymnastics, a printing press (extremely old school), ect. Most of those in Jr high. 11-12 yo.

Teaching actual gun safety and not as a political tool would go a long way. Teachers are supposed to be college educated adults. Keeping a firearm concealed is not a difficult concept. By the way, kids are bringing guns into skoolz everyday and not using them.

 

[Jonnyuma]

So, you don't believe in the utility and usefulness of lawful concealed carry outside of school? Because that argument is essentially the exact argument that MDA and other gun control groups use when trying to get it shut down.

Do some research into the crime rates and accident rates of lawful concealed carriers and instances of others getting a hold of their guns. For the millions of concealed carriers, those numbers are extremely low. There's zero data to suggest those numbers would increase in schools.

Well, shoot. That's precisely the point I was going to make... now I don't have to.

It's the same argument(s) they used against University campus carry just in a different format. Distilled to it's base form, they are saying that responsible, law abiding concealed carriers, who have been background checked, vetted, and take their responsibilities seriously EVERYWHERE else they go in life, will turn into drunken, racist bigots who will pull that heater and start shooting indiscriminately (but mostly at black and brown people) without provication. They'll suddenly be in the habit of leaving their valuables laying around unattended for students to steal... I have to assume that anyone who would leave a 5 or 600 dollar handgun out in the open would do the same with a purse or wallet w $20 and a Subway card in it. All of this happens because they walked onto school property.

The lesson I'm learning is that school makes normal people, people who have families, mortgages, all of the same responsibilities as anyone else, incredible idiots w no sense. It also makes them lazy and, apparently murderously racist.

BTW, there is a company (FAST, I think) who has been offering free training to school personnel who wish to avail themselves to it... many already have.

 

[etrain16]

I have to agree with the comments above that cite the incidents with concealed carry holders around the country. We do have real world numbers and evidence that concealed carry holders, by and large, with small numbers of exceptions, are responsible people that often go out of their way to avoid using their guns for anything but immediate and imminent threats on their lives or the lives of others.

We're supposed to trust our children with these people for anywhere from 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week, but suddenly they can't be trusted if given another tool to help protect our children? WTF kind of messed up thinking is that? If I can't trust a teacher to be armed - one that has been BGC'd, has additional/recurring/professional training and support, then what are they doing in the school in the first place? And if the teacher is racist, a gun isn't going to be what brings that out, it should already be obvious in their other actions. If a damn shooter shows up at the school, who the f@#k am I supposed to trust to protect my kid in the first place? We trust them to hide the kids from a shooter, but not to engage the shooter, if they so choose?? What's to stop a teacher from using the black students as human shields to protect the white kids? Sound ridiculous? No more ridiculous than believing white teachers will suddenly start shooting black students.

Further example, what's to stop a teacher from failing every black student, if that teacher is racist? How about beating them? How about getting them thrown out of school? Arrested? Come on. This argument is a desperate attempt by the anti-gun ultra-leftists to prevent the thing they don't want to see - safer schools. They know if teachers start arming up, if schools lose the whole 'gun free zone' designation because teachers and other staff are armed, then their arguments about banning guns will ultimately be proven wrong, and they will lose.

Crying racism over everything they don't like is such a low-brown argument, it's amazing to me anyone takes it seriously anymore. "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" Really? Pretty damn obvious by now that it's not. Yet Chicken Little still has the ear of the media.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

As I have said before :
We get many visitors here to our site...what you post or how you reply can represent :
Our forum...our members and all gun owners...be careful with what you say and how you phrase it.

Arming teachers / school staff...
Speaking only for myself here as a teacher....
I have done a lot of "soul searching" on this topic.
At first I was opposed to the idea , not for the the reasons of the MSNBC Panelist but for these reasons :

Most school shooters are current students or a former student...if a teacher is forced to shoot , they may be shooting someone they know , they taught , they like / care for.
Now to be blunt , I have four combat tours.
I am here alive , because of actions that I took to keep myself and others alive.
Shooting a enemy soldier is one thing .... Its the possibility of shooting a kid that I have contact with , that was something that I had to think on and take a long , hard look at myself .

Shooting someone , in front of others , kids who you are in charge of , in your care , maybe even kids who have special needs , kids who have trouble processing and understanding the world around them...
They will be affected by the actions they have seen , possibly for the rest of their lives.
What I had to balance out was , the trauma that they may suffer versus the large and real chance of more students and staff being killed.
Again to be blunt...just telling a war story in my experience , when folks hear you say that you killed someone , it can change just how they think , feel and react to you...having people watch you do it , will do this , again in my experience.

For me , in the end , I kept circling back to the thought , that my students are under my care for 7 hours.
My care , means that I do my best for them at that time.
My best for them , in part means that I will do what is necessary for my students to be safe.

As for the panelist suggesting that teachers will shoot shoot black students...
I would say this :
I have a CPL ... When I carry I do my best to not put myself into a situation where I need to shoot.
Most folks who carry tend to think and act the same.
Why would a teacher be any different...?
Just because you have access to a gun , does not mean that you have to use it or will use it , every time a situation happens.

Should every teacher or staff member be armed...No
Should those who are willing to be armed , have the option of being armed...Yes
That said ...
Understanding the unique set of circumstances that they will be under while armed...
A vastly different and again unique set of Rules of Engagement may be needed...
Training , cooperation and coordination with law enforcement will be needed...if nothing else to ID those staff that are armed from a intruder ....

Sorry for the long ramble...but this is hot topic and many folks have opinions and thoughts on it and are keen on sharing them...most seem not to be school staff.
Just wanted to point out one teacher's thoughts....
Andy

 

[11Charlie]

Thread cleaned! Lets make sure to follow the rules gentlemen.

 

[CrankyGuy]

As I have said before :
We get many visitors here to our site...what you post or how you reply can represent :
Our forum...our members and all gun owners...be careful with what you say and how you phrase it.

Arming teachers / school staff...
Speaking only for myself here as a teacher....
I have done a lot of "soul searching" on this topic.
At first I was opposed to the idea , not for the the reasons of the MSNBC Panelist but for these reasons :

Most school shooters are current students or a former student...if a teacher is forced to shoot , they may be shooting someone they know , they taught , they like / care for.
Now to be blunt , I have four combat tours.
I am here alive , because of actions that I took to keep myself and others alive.
Shooting a enemy soldier is one thing .... Its the possibility of shooting a kid that I have contact with , that was something that I had to think on and take a long , hard look at myself .

Shooting someone , in front of others , kids who you are in charge of , in your care , maybe even kids who have special needs , kids who have trouble processing and understanding the world around them...
They will be affected by the actions they have seen , possibly for the rest of their lives.
What I had to balance out was , the trauma that they may suffer versus the large and real chance of more students and staff being killed.
Again to be blunt...just telling a war story in my experience , when folks hear you say that you killed someone , it can change just how they think , feel and react to you...having people watch you do it , will do this , again in my experience.

For me , in the end , I kept circling back to the thought , that my students are under my care for 7 hours.
My care , means that I do my best for them at that time.
My best for them , in part means that I will do what is necessary for my students to be safe.

As for the panelist suggesting that teachers will shoot shoot black students...
I would say this :
I have a CPL ... When I carry I do my best to not put myself into a situation where I need to shoot.
Most folks who carry tend to think and act the same.
Why would a teacher be any different...?
Just because you have access to a gun , does not mean that you have to use it or will use it , every time a situation happens.

Should every teacher or staff member be armed...No
Should those who are willing to be armed , have the option of being armed...Yes
That said ...
Understanding the unique set of circumstances that they will be under while armed...
A vastly different and again unique set of Rules of Engagement may be needed...
Training , cooperation and coordination with law enforcement will be needed...if nothing else to ID those staff that are armed from a intruder ....

Sorry for the long ramble...but this is hot topic and many folks have opinions and thoughts on it and are keen on sharing them...most seem not to be school staff.
Just wanted to point out one teacher's thoughts....
Andy

Great post. I think you got the right idea and nuanced appeal of an educators thinking. I don't particularly have an issue with some teachers, or administrators having fire arms on campus. I'd hope the number is at a necessary minimum. But if we think that's a solve all we are sorely mistaken. This is a larger issue of better student out reach, and mental health assessments/help reaching those most likely to be school shooters, or violent. I'm in school hoping to be an educator like yourself and though there may be kids who will come to harm others my first goal isn't to shoot them, but to find them help before I ever have to think of firing on one of my students.

 

[etrain16]

By the way, I shouldn't have to state the obvious, but for those to whom this is not readily apparent, I will:

If a teacher is racist, with any kind of bent toward shooting a black student, then they are certainly not going to wait until they get approval to bring a gun into the school to do it. Bad people don't follow laws. If someone is concerned a teacher may shoot a student (outside of that student being an active shooter) based on that students' race, then that teacher shouldn't be teaching in the first place, period.

 

[CrankyGuy]

By the way, I shouldn't have to state the obvious, but for those to whom this is not readily apparent, I will:

If a teacher is racist, with any kind of bent toward shooting a black student, then they are certainly not going to wait until they get approval to bring a gun into the school to do it. Bad people don't follow laws. If someone is concerned a teacher may shoot a student (outside of that student being an active shooter) based on that students' race, then that teacher shouldn't be teaching in the first place, period.

I agree with the basic concept of your comment, but in my opinion there are plenty of bubblegumed up criminals who follow the laws and mimick being a good citizen so they can further mask more evil intents and actions. That's classic behavior for those trying to take advantage and hurt the weakest of us, children...

You're right criminals won't respect laws, but they'll play enough within the bounds to get away with worse at times.

 

[caarecengi]

MSNBC Panelist Argues Teachers Might Shoot Black Students If They're Allowed to Carry Guns

Why are liberals so obsessed with skin color? Hmmmmmmm

 

[Caveman Jim]

Well, I don't have time for fools that generalize about the character of Americans they never met, or actually talked to. That's just plain ignorant and worthless. One can only hope that generation of thinking dies off. You got Zero credibility when you're more interested in hearing yourself speak then you are educating yourself about those you trash talk.

Edit: nice to see a working ignore button, that'll come in handy.

Old cranky one is # 64. bub by

 

[CrankyGuy]

Why are liberals so obsessed with skin color? Hmmmmmmm

Why do conservatives like to ignore America's racist history

You are # 64. bub by

 

[CrankyGuy]

You are # 64. bub by

Hang loose, brosiden.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Well, I don't have time for fools that generalize about the character of Americans they never met, or actually talked to. That's just plain ignorant and worthless. One can only hope that generation of thinking dies off...

Is that you Oprah?

But seriously, I am still not sure if you are here to learn or agitate?

You say that you are studying to be a teacher, my mother was a teacher so I can relate. So if you have questions feel free to ask, but do not be so quick to dismiss the answers based solely on your feelings.

 

[CrankyGuy]

Is that you Oprah?

But seriously, I am still not sure if you are here to learn or agitate?

You say that you are studying to be a teacher, my mother was a teacher so I can relate. So if you have questions feel free to ask, but do not be so quick to dismiss the answers based solely on your feelings.

Not here to learn from random talking heads about their narrow politics, no that is not why I'm here. And I'm gonna dismiss the bubblegum out of anyone that claims to be objective and then out right calls a bunch of Americans they never met pussies and idiots...yea, I'll pass on that lesson. If you're too fragile for my "agitation" feel free to block me like I blocked that user. Hang loose, brosiden.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

I am not name calling, just posting facts. And the facts support the statement that Gun Free Zones are ineffective

 

[CrankyGuy]

I am not name calling, just posting facts. And the facts support the statement that Gun Free Zones are ineffective
View attachment 493516

You called me a troll the first day I was here, I'd say that's name calling and that also makes you a liar.

 

[slimmer13]

Seems likely one of the recent agitators is back under a new name.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

You called me a troll the first day I was here, I'd say that's name calling and that also makes you a liar.

No, I asked "So you are just here to troll then?" when you dismissed our facts with projections of your own fears of guns.