Medford Police: Being "Proactive"

[chris61182]

I hope that we all stay on topic because I would really like to hear the outcome.

The man in question is physically free, free of charges, apparently free of mental defects, and he has his guns back. So fortunately at this point any further outcome is probably a ways away.

 

[Ravenous]

You guys are killing me... I was really digging this forum but you guys are making arguements and taking a stand based on nothing! It really makes me question a lot of the topics and info I thought were facts posted on this board. I see nothing but a blanket hate of LEOs. You guys are picking the parts you want to see and ignoring the huge information gaps. You'd rather crucify the guy that was just saying not to jump to conclusions. I hope you guys never serve on a jury seeing as you can fill in the information gaps with what you want to believe. Now I am not saying anybody here is assuming wrong. I am saying that all of you are assuming and attacking each other (in particular the one person who might actually know what happened) without knowing with certainty what happened. Not that it matters but IMHO you are all wrong, because I know and you know that none of us really know the whole story.

 

[Father of four]

I agree with you chris. But the Mods will close this thread is people don't stay on topic. Me included.

 

[Gunner3456]

I said at the beginning this would be problematic.

The focus here would be "profiling."

So let us move on to "race".

In 1969, if you had long hair and drove a bike,

In the Rogue Valley.

Nevermind that you worked a fulltime job plus some,

You just had to be some kind of user or dealer or both.

Well, I was neither.

But I was profiled as neatly and exactly as

Any other suspicious person.


isher

Isher, I enjoy your posts and I like you a lot so please don't take offense?

You are referring to a time 41 years ago. All of those civic leaders and leos are dead or retired. The population of Medford is a whole new mix.

I live in the county so Medford is just a place I visit now, even though I can see the whole sweep of it out of our great room windows. It lights up our life at night. Medford now has a population of 100,000 m/l and even an international airport.

Hey, it's no longer "Dead Indian Road" but rather "Dead Indian Memorial Road" just to be PC and to keep everyone happy.

I have no idea why I've spent so much time on this thread. I suppose it's just because the guys who now lead the MPD really are nice people. They aren't the stereotypical swaggering cops who used to stop us. They don't have the self-important attitude that I used to see. They are low key and humble and that has filtered down due to hiring choices. Even the new youngsters on the beat are really nice, polite kids.

I used to hate cops and I can still dislike one really fast if I see an "attitude," no kidding. I dislike a couple of departments here in the valley even now and wouldn't stick up for them.

Again, I'm just saying that the current mix at MPD is really good and they do their best, though human. They are pro 2A, and very much a defender of our rights to the best of their ability. The current sheriff is on our side for 2A and anything else which protects our rights. Again, he's the one who refused a freedom of information act when the Mail Tribune demanded a list of CCW holders. He said it would point to where the guns are and violate the privacy of individuals, or something like that.

I'm saddened to see so much of an angry and uninformed knee-jerk attack against some ordinary guys who were trying their best to do their jobs.

Did I mention that I have always up until recently hated cops, and still do a lot of them?

 

[shibbershabber]

First off, Gunner, it is not hypocrisy. I really dont have a problem with the whole "attack the messenger" thing. I feel that the level of discourse between us at this point is such that I have some leeway to make assumptions about your character.

However, when I say that I do not expect intelligent conversation from you it is not meant as a personal insult, but rather a careful observation of your abilities to carry on a conversation with your peers.


now for the rest of your reply...

It's so good that you had the chance to meet him.

I can safely assume he is a good person, because for one, he doesnt have a criminal history, and passed a psych evaluation within a few hours. Ok, so that being said he may me a jerk... but not a dangerous criminal.

now I could say the same for you, have you met him? I think this is the heart of the matter, he was accused of plotting something horrible, and he was cleared, completely. Yet there are those who do not know him at all, like you, who have judged him based on these unfounded accusations. Your comments certainly give the impression that you believe him to be a bad person... based solely on the information surrounding this case.

Wow, you have this uncanny ability to know things so very well which simply aren't true.

Okay, lets pay close attention here. I began my statement by saying that I was "going out on a limb" this means I am making a wild-assed guess. With me so far?

Okay, now, so I was making a guess based on the fact that he passed the eval and was determined not to be a danger to ANYONE, so much so that his scary, scary guns are being returned to him without delay OR going through the normal process of having property returned. AND the fact that he was put on leave because of a dispute with his supervisor.

So, thats where I am coming from... Now YOU on the other hand, not knowing anymore than I, can as smart-assedly as possible say that my theory is "simply not true".
I would love to know how you got your uncanny ability to know everything... I am guessing, but you are certain, how is that?

Did he make threats or didn't he? How do you know? If you don't know, then why are you here?

Very simple. If he made threats, he would have been arrested, charged. Because it is a CRIME, I repeat A CRIME to make threats.

How do I know this? Well I dont really, but if he had made threats HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND CHARGED. Also, one of the many articles that covered this story would have mentioned something as big as that. Oh yeah, and he wouldnt be walking around free and he wouldnt have the dept personally bringing his weapons back to him. Hows that smart guy?

Why am I here? Surely different reasons than you.:winkkiss:

I am here because I love guns. I love everything about them, shooting them, collecting them, fixing them, customizing them... **** I even like to clean them. Most of all I am here because I am a 100% solid, no compromise defender of the Second Amendment and the right of Americans to own whatever, or how many ever guns they want. Beyond that, I am a defender of the entire Constitution which covers other rights that you may not be familiar with, or support... but those are the rights that Mr. Pyles had violated, or was coerced at gunpoint to give up "willingly"

PRINCIPLE trumps brains and good judgment every time, right? Especially when someone doesn't know the facts in the case, right?

Thats right, it can. PRINCIPLE is what makes a man a man and what gives his word value. PRINCIPLE means sticking up for what you know is right. PRINCIPLE is something lacking on a large scale in this country, but that is for another thread.

Pay close attention here... I am sure you will just gloss right over this and make a silly comment about something else I said... but please try to read this, okay?

THE FACTS: (as I understand them)

Mr. Pyles was put on leave from his job, he was not happy about it.
Mr. Pyles, who was already a gun owner, bought a few more.
Mr. Pyles DID NOT make violent threats against another person
Mr. Pyles is NOT a danger to himself, or others
Mr. Pyles was falsely accused of being a threat
Mr. Pyles was coerced by a SWAT team to leave his home before sunrise
Mr. Pyles was intimidated by a dozen men in tactical gear armed with assault rifles into going for a psych eval
Mr. Pyles was handcuffed and treated like a criminal
Mr. Pyles was gave up his weapons to the aforementioned group of armed men.
Mr. Pyles PASSED his evaluation & had his weapons returned.

Okay genius, tear that apart for me... Which of the 'facts' have I made up?



and lastly,

Ah! Finish by attacking the messenger again. Nice touch.

Okay, hot shot, not quite an attack. Just pointing out that you have said that you were "done" with the thread, only to continue posting. And that you were "done" with another poster, only to continue quoting him. Thats all.
I know how you like to point out hypocrisy when you see it... I thought you would appreciate the same.

 

[Gunner3456]

So,, is the guy a black guy? Does it matter?

Someone told me today "You better not make a false move in Portland if you are a black guy". I asked what he was talking about and he said some black folks got shot in Portland recently by police for not standing rigid enough, what's that about? I don't put much stock on what the guy says because I think he voted for Obama.

But isher's point I think was that the cops in Medford are like those who ran the deep South 60 years ago. I don't believe it and hope it's not true, and it's the first I'd heard about the reference to Jefferson Davis, I'd assumed it was a reference to Thomas Jefferson.

So much for 'the State of Jefferson', before tonight I was in favor of succession.

Isher is reminiscing about a time more than 40 years ago before we had lots of court decisions, new laws, and lawsuits to calm things down.

I didn't take it that he was inferring anything about today. He's right about the 60's though, fwiw.

 

[Just Jim]

I post my opinion and that is all. I don't say I know anything but voice my thoughts on what's happening by what information is released. I read what people say and voice my opinion on their post. Opinion is what you think of the event and since all we can do is think about what we read there will be differences. We voice our opinions on what each poster post.

Some people step over the line of opinion and call their words facts. Unless you were there you have no real facts, you have hearsay. Some people understand this and some never will. That is life.

jj

 

[Partsproduction]

Did I mention that I have always up until recently hated cops, and still do a lot of them?

Gunner, do I have it right that you wouldn't mind being treated the way this guy was?

There are going to have to be new facts brought to light before I'll change my mind about it.

1. He was asked if he minded being handcuffed after being told he wouldn't be and agreed to it.
2. He agreed that they could confiscate his guns.
3. The authorities responsible for this apologize to Mr Pyle for taking his guns If he didn't give them permission. Such an apology would indicate that they themselves agree that they had no legal right to do so and will not do it in the future.

If Mr. Pyle was attacked and killed after the police took his guns, and he couldn't defend himself, wouldn't his blood be on their hands? I think it would.

 

[Gunner3456]

-snip-

OK, let's start right here and avoid the rest of this only for some attempt at more brevity.

Pay close attention here... I am sure you will just gloss right over this and make a silly comment about something else I said... but please try to read this, okay?

You might pay closer attention. Early on I stated and I knew some things about this case which I couldn't divulge, other than to say that I thought the police did the best they could under the circumstances. It's also public knowledge that they had agreement from three other LEO agencies across a 100 mile swath including the State Police, all of whom were "greatly concerned." Mr. Pyles simply was a subject of "great concern" to a lot of LEOs.

THE FACTS: (as I understand them)

Mr. Pyles was put on leave from his job, he was not happy about it.
He has not spoken publicly about his side of that or his feelings that I know of.
Mr. Pyles, who was already a gun owner, bought a few more.
True.
Mr. Pyles DID NOT make violent threats against another person
I can't comment beyond saying that you don't know that.
Mr. Pyles is NOT a danger to himself, or others
The legal standard for taking someone into protective custody is far lower than the standard which must be met to hold him in a psych ward. The findings of the hospital staff were not disclosed.
Mr. Pyles was falsely accused of being a threat
Now there is something you truly don't know.
Mr. Pyles was coerced by a SWAT team to leave his home before sunrise
You would have had to have been there to tell me how he was invited if he was invited. How do you know he didn't actually feel a need to talk? People often do, even to the police.
Mr. Pyles was intimidated by a dozen men in tactical gear armed with assault rifles into going for a psych eval
How do you know he wasn't feeling messed up and wanting some help?
Mr. Pyles was handcuffed and treated like a criminal
It is standard procedure to cuff anyone who is taken into custody for his own safety as well as the officers'. That includes protective custody.
Mr. Pyles was gave up his weapons to the aforementioned group of armed men.
He volunteered them. How do you know that this guy wasn't really messed up and wanting help? How do you know he didn't actually want to unload his feelings on a shrink?
Mr. Pyles PASSED his evaluation & had his weapons returned.
Again, the standard for "passing" that evaluation weighs very heavily on the public, and very much in favor of the person in custody. Therefore, "passing" is a relative term. But yes, he was released and got his guns back.

Okay genius, tear that apart for me... Which of the 'facts' have I made up?

Well, starting out with the "genius" remark isn't helpful, but you have a lot of the facts wrong.

Let's just skip the old joke about what happens when we "assume," OK?

Edit: I'm not saying that all of my alternative theories are the facts in the case. I'm just making a point that there are plausible alternative theories.

 

[Gunner3456]

Gunner, do I have it right that you wouldn't mind being treated the way this guy was?

I would mind it a great deal. I don't believe that I would ever be in his position though. I believe he brought it on himself.

There are going to have to be new facts brought to light before I'll change my mind about it.

1. He was asked if he minded being handcuffed after being told he wouldn't be and agreed to it.

Consider this possibility. He was assured that if he came outside he wouldn't be attacked, arrested or cuffed. There was no warrant.

After coming out, he further agreed to go for an evaluation, but the ride in the police car now requires cuffs, but he's going willingly.

2. He agreed that they could confiscate his guns.

The reports indicate that he did, yes.

3. The authorities responsible for this apologize to Mr Pyle for taking his guns If he didn't give them permission. Such an apology would indicate that they themselves agree that they had no legal right to do so and will not do it in the future.

Now wait! If the first two are true, then what's to apologize for?

If Mr. Pyle was attacked and killed after the police took his guns, and he couldn't defend himself, wouldn't his blood be on their hands? I think it would.

I think that's a reach, especially since he voluntarily gave them up, and got them back the next day.

 

[isher]

Isher, I enjoy your posts and I like you a lot so please don't take offense?

You are referring to a time 41 years ago. All of those civic leaders and leos are dead or retired. The population of Medford is a whole new mix.

I live in the county so Medford is just a place I visit now, even though I can see the whole sweep of it out of our great room windows. It lights up our life at night. Medford now has a population of 100,000 m/l and even an international airport.

Hey, it's no longer "Dead Indian Road" but rather "Dead Indian Memorial Road" just to be PC and to keep everyone happy.

I have no idea why I've spent so much time on this thread. I suppose it's just because the guys who now lead the MPD really are nice people. They aren't the stereotypical swaggering cops who used to stop us. They don't have the self-important attitude that I used to see. They are low key and humble and that has filtered down due to hiring choices. Even the new youngsters on the beat are really nice, polite kids.

I used to hate cops and I can still dislike one really fast if I see an "attitude," no kidding. I dislike a couple of departments here in the valley even now and wouldn't stick up for them.

Again, I'm just saying that the current mix at MPD is really good and they do their best, though human. They are pro 2A, and very much a defender of our rights to the best of their ability. The current sheriff is on our side for 2A and anything else which protects our rights. Again, he's the one who refused a freedom of information act when the Mail Tribune demanded a list of CCW holders. He said it would point to where the guns are and violate the privacy of individuals, or something like that.

I'm saddened to see so much of an angry and uninformed knee-jerk attack against some ordinary guys who were trying their best to do their jobs.

Did I mention that I have always up until recently hated cops, and still do a lot of them?

Gunner -

It is because I care about freedom, and the valley, even though

I have not lived there in many, many years.

I hold the same values for the valley I presently live in.

And will hold the same values wherever I live.

I don't hate cops.

I really hate misappropriated, unauthorised "authority."

So I will continue to be the snarling ranch dog

In my own way.

And by the way, the history sticks tighter than you might think.

Just sayin', from an old fart.

isher

 

[supergenius]

This thread does not deliver.

 

[isher]

This thread does not deliver.

OK, Supergenius

What exactly does deliver?

i.e. You are expecting what product and when.

Please be specific.

isher

 

[Gunner3456]

This thread does not deliver.

It stands to reason that when you're a supergenius, no thread by mere mortals will ever measure up.

 

[ZeroRing]

This thread has wandered all over the place and gotten nowhere, Therefore consider this topic closed.