Oregon Measure 114 litigation

[ZigZagZeke]

In ordinary usage, a 'designee' might be a Lieutenant or Sergeant in the department, reporting to the Sheriff or Chief, so the Chiefs and Sheriffs are not the only ones who can issue the permits.

'Ordinary usage' does not entirely rule out non-LE designees, but I would be pretty surprised.

Even so, letting a minor player in the LEO hierarchy make these decisions is about as dumb an idea as I have ever heard. I've dealt with a few of these cowboys in my checkered career. The potential for abuse is huge.

 

[Librarian]

Even so, letting a minor player in the LEO hierarchy make these decisions is about as dumb an idea as I have ever heard. I've dealt with a few of these cowboys in my checkered career. The potential for abuse is huge.

Usually not so minor in my experience. But the tradeoff is, did you elect your sheriff to be a clerk, or run a department?

 

[Ura-Ki]

Usually not so minor in my experience. But the tradeoff is, did you elect your sheriff to be a clerk, or run a department?

The other side of that, Did you elect your Sheriff to run his office to the highest standards of Honor and integrity, expecting him/her to to uphold the highest standards of office! Who would you rather have writing policy, the Sheriff, or a low level functionary? Kinda like Our illustrious Attorney General, who couldn't be bothered to present her Arguments for the State in person, so she sends a functionary to speak on her behalf with her full weight and authority!

 

[Yarome]

Usually not so minor in my experience. But the tradeoff is, did you elect your sheriff to be a clerk, or run a department?

That's another side of the coin that really irks me... beyond trying to gut punt gun owners... they can somehow come up with 10's of millions of money for administrative BS, but no money for additional officers and training to allow them to actually do the job for which they are intended?

For those that believe defunding the police is a good idea I can see how a strategy may be in play to not only cut their budgets as far as the public will allow, but bury them in paperwork and bureaucratic BS in order to further reduce LE presence in the population. Its projected that something like 250 new hires will have to take place to admin the permit system. I would much rather see 250 LEO's back out on the street than pushing paper in a basement somewhere. In reality, I can very easily see only 100 new hires for it and pulling the other 150 from current personnel to make up the difference. Thats how they play!

"Police" the law abiding to further their agenda... not the criminals. We all know... crime in OR isn't a problem, anyway, right??

It's certainly an excellent way to reduce crime stats in the state, isn't it!? Stop arresting people so the numbers drop and they can claim, 'See! Our plans are working! Crime rates are at an all time low!"

 

[Danall]

Slightly off topic specific to litigation, but i see others are also a bit off that topic so here goes/also first post.
My concerns with 114.
There is supposed to be a 30 day turnaround for issuance of a "permit to purchase". But what happens if it is longer? Yes i know the language uses the word "shall" but courts are already playing with that perhaps "shall" can mean "may" in some situations... some judges must be unfamiliar with Merriam-Webster.
There is no recourse. It could be 2 or 3 months if "they" wish. ALso there is no timeline for once you have a permit to purchase for the background check process. That also could be "slow walked", it would be entirely possible relative to 114 that it could take 6 months (or longer) to purchase a firearm from the time of initial application for permit to actual purchase. If OSP wanted to slow down firearm acquisition nothing could stop that.
Also relative to the background check process it requires an approval number prior to dealer transfer, unlike the current situation that allows a FFl transaction after 3 days of initiation of background check
from 114

c) The dealer may not transfer the firearm unless the dealer receives a unique approval number from the department and, within 48 hours of completing the transfer, the dealer shall notify the state that the transfer to the permit holder was completed.

Someone from out of state asked me if Oregon had a waiting period for handgun purchase, i replied, technically no, but in actuality it has an indefinite waiting period as most dealers will not issue a firearm after the 3 day period, and nothing is keeping OSP from slow walking the entire approval.

 

[Knebel]

So my question is, if I would want to purchase a firearm before the 8th, which store will release it to me after 3 days if nothing comes back in time? Obviously I'm not prohibited... just wondering which store actually adheres to current law?

 

[Yarome]

Yes i know the language uses the word "shall" but courts are already playing with that perhaps "shall" can mean "may" in some situations... some judges must be unfamiliar with Merriam-Webster.

There is nowhere in the measure that I can find that says "shall issue". AFIK, that is coming strictly from the states legal argument and, IMHO, that's how they are trying to sell it to the judge and the public, but is a flat out lie. Just like they said mags are not 2A protected, only 2.2 rounds are required for self defense and purchase permits will be available on the 8th.

The provisions of the measure itself clearly makes it "may issue" when discretion is left to an individual agent to reach personal conclusions without defined rules of what does and does not constitue a "threat to themselves or others".

Is the fact a kid was temporarily treated for depression during their H.S. years qualify as a potential threat? You're a republican and that agent views all republicans as anti government radicals... are you a threat to others? You posted on a forum "I will not comply" with a mag ban... does that make you dangerous?

 

[Yarome]

So my question is, if I would want to purchase a firearm before the 8th, which store will release it to me after 3 days if nothing comes back in time? Obviously I'm not prohibited... just wondering which store actually adheres to current law?

Oregon - Effective Immediately We Are Releasing Guns Under the 3 Day Transfer Law

Addressed to all of our customers, Oregon gun owners, our fellow Oregon FFLs, and to firearms enthusiasts everywhere: By now you are most likely aware that at 12am on Dec 8th the Oregon State Police will be requiring permits for firearms purchasing due to Measure 114. There have been numerous...

www.northwestfirearms.com

Some info in there, but... you may be too late since some of those at least marked today as the last day to initiate a BGC for a 3day release.

Calling around and asking, you might find someone, but odds are extremely slim. The 3day clock doesn't start until OSP assigns an active processing number so it's not actually 3 days, to the hour, that the BGC is initiated.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Slightly off topic specific to litigation, but i see others are also a bit off that topic so here goes/also first post.
My concerns with 114.
There is supposed to be a 30 day turnaround for issuance of a "permit to purchase". But what happens if it is longer? Yes i know the language uses the word "shall" but courts are already playing with that perhaps "shall" can mean "may" in some situations... some judges must be unfamiliar with Merriam-Webster.
There is no recourse. It could be 2 or 3 months if "they" wish. ALso there is no timeline for once you have a permit to purchase for the background check process. That also could be "slow walked", it would be entirely possible relative to 114 that it could take 6 months (or longer) to purchase a firearm from the time of initial application for permit to actual purchase. If OSP wanted to slow down firearm acquisition nothing could stop that.
Also relative to the background check process it requires an approval number prior to dealer transfer, unlike the current situation that allows a FFl transaction after 3 days of initiation of background check
from 114

Someone from out of state asked me if Oregon had a waiting period for handgun purchase, i replied, technically no, but in actuality it has an indefinite waiting period as most dealers will not issue a firearm after the 3 day period, and nothing is keeping OSP from slow walking the entire approval.

First of all, Welcome aboard, glad to have you!
Great questions, and very relevant! The short answers are: The State is confungling what the actual BILL States and what it is attempting to do, while the Bill it's self does not actually spell everything out in enough detail to have a factual answer to each of those questions! In Short, this Bill was so poorly written, and it's enforcement can and most assuredly will be slapdash willy-nilly, despite a hard agreement as to what and who of things!
Your specific question of what happens after 30 days, That's just it, no one knows, and the bill fails to make or contains any provisions for, so the theories generally follow the "YOUR PHUCKED" for however long it takes for all the pieces to come together, and that's with out any interference by those in power with nefarious intentions! How it SHOULD WORK, and what the Bill should have clearly spelled out: You fill out your application for Training which should be a regularly scheduled event, say every week day evening, times 2, one earlier class, one later, 5 days a week excepting weekends and FED Holidays! Once you complete your training requirement, you are automatically submitted by the Training Administration Staff to the OSP or it's designated Sheriffs Office ( Which is where you should be anyway, or at one of it's facilities, fully staffed with the proper personal to handle this), who then conduct the prescribed BGC and they MUST Clear you instantly, ideally it would work the same as the INSTANT NICS Check, as in your info is entered and as soon as the enter button is pressed, your check is cleared! After that, you are issued your Permit to Purchase while standing there getting your other paperwork signed and entered into the system as completed, and you are issued your final hard copy license which you must submit to the FFL prior to making your purchase! Ideally, it's a three hour MAX ordeal, same day and you walk as a free man/woman with your 2nd rights un infringed by a bent system! What is the likelihood of any of that actually happening, absolutely ZERO, along with all the Phucks the Sheriff's and City Departments will give all this!

What would be even better, is the Sheriff's of this state declare this their SOLE territory/Authority ( As it IS a Constitutnal Right) and it's a simple "Rubber Stamp" kinda deal, you show up during business hours, fill out a simple paper, have your photo and prints taken, and the NCIS check done, and you walk with a freshly printed permit to purchase, and the OSP and the State A.G. can eat a bag of sweaty dicks with a big ol heaping side of man-aise!!! All other requirements are moot, and NO data is ever entered into the state database!

 

[Member 66129]

So my question is, if I would want to purchase a firearm before the 8th, which store will release it to me after 3 days if nothing comes back in time? Obviously I'm not prohibited... just wondering which store actually adheres to current law?

At this point, it's too late unless you get an instant.

 

[Danall]

My understanding in reading the bill, it's a 2 step process, once you have your "permit to purchase", you will still need to go thru a background check just as you do now...and a unique approval number from that check is required before the purchase (as opposed to current situation that allows a transfer in 3 days if such approval is not processed. My point is this background check process (separate from the permit process) has no timeline. Thus overall potentially a lengthy process.
I suspect the reasoning for the background check in addition to the permit acquisition is because the permit is a 5 year issuance, and there could be a dasterdly deed committed by the applicant after the original issuance of permit and time of intended purchase.

 

[Ura-Ki]

My understanding in reading the bill, it's a 2 step process, once you have your "permit to purchase", you will still need to go thru a background check just as you do now...and a unique approval number from that check is required before the purchase (as opposed to current situation that allows a transfer in 3 days if such approval is not processed. My point is this background check process (separate from the permit process) has no timeline. Thus overall potentially a lengthy process.
I suspect the reasoning for the background check in addition to the permit acquisition is because the permit is a 5 year issuance, and there could be a dasterdly deed committed by the applicant after the original issuance of permit and time of intended purchase.

Yup, and it's an end run around a standing Fed Law!

 

[Xmark1]

Liberals

I hope this does not violate any of the rules here.
I simply found it amusing.

 

[arakboss]

So my question is, if I would want to purchase a firearm before the 8th, which store will release it to me after 3 days if nothing comes back in time? Obviously I'm not prohibited... just wondering which store actually adheres to current law?

No FFLs will do this now, your 4473 would have had to been initiated yesterday.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Yea, MOSTLY! IF your BGC does come back as a denied at a later date, THEY Absolutely WILL come and take it from you, no Iff's, And's, or But's!!!
It's also been common for Oregon and many other states to NOT allow the 3 day rule, under threat from the ATF!

It's both Oregon and federal law. The ATF can lie and bluster and threaten, but it's the law. Period. Kinda like "Shall not be infringed."

 

[ZigZagZeke]

(5) "Permit Agent" means a county sheriff or police chief with jurisdiction over the residence of the person making an
application for a permit-to-purchase, or their designees

Designee is not spelled out here. Contractor? DMV? Private company? FFL? There are no limits stated. Could be a great source of revenue for people putting on gun classes, including the live fire qualifying class. Never underestimate the proclivity for government to offload work onto the private sector, nor the ingenuity of the average capitalist in finding ways to make a profit.

 

[arakboss]

Designee is not spelled out here. Contractor? DMV? Private company? FFL? There are no limits stated. Could be a great source of revenue for people putting on gun classes, including the live fire qualifying class. Never underestimate the proclivity for government to offload work onto the private sector, nor the ingenuity of the average capitalist in finding ways to make a profit.

My belief is the designees are the employees of the Sheriff or the Police Chief.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[Librarian]

Just picked this up from OFF

https://www.doj.state.or.us/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/ag_letter_to_the_court_114_ecf_34.pdf

In its response, the State Defendants will agree that implementation challenges require postponing implementation of one aspect of Measure 114. Specifically, the State agrees that the Court should enter an order providing a limited window in which Oregonians will be able to purchase firearms even if they do not have a permit, while also allowing Oregonians to apply for and be issued permits. We intend to reach out to Plaintiffs in Eyre and Azzopardi within the next day to discuss a proposed stipulation that allows this window.

As such, it has become clear that the police chiefs and sheriffs (who serve as the sole permitting agents under Measure 114) will not be prepared to issue permits on December 8. Executive Director Myers represented that it will take "at least another month" to prepare an operational permit system. (Myers Decl. ¶ 12.)

 

[E4mafia]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1599643391167692802

Big if true but awaiting for other confirmation