Liberty safes - "backdoor" access code?

[Tarawa86]

Screw it, it's just a safe. I'd rather they are forced to cut it open than give them free access.

Yep. Don't know if it's mentioned in this thread but I think part of the problem (if I read other sources correctly) is that they gave up the code based on the property warrant (which they didn't have to do), and not a subpoena to the company.

 

[Kruel J]

Yep. Don't know if it's mentioned in this thread but I think part of the problem (if I read other sources correctly) is that they gave up the code based on the property warrant (which they didn't have to do), and not a subpoena to the company.

I think it was, and it's a very critical piece of information.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[The Heretic]

 

[JTK1791]

I doubt just 'having them' would draw much attention, but also yeah. Everyone is all for Law & Order until it's time to be lawful and orderly .
But I have this old fashioned notion that when I pick a path I don't get to choose which parts of the path I get to interact with and which parts I cry "Foul!" over.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

Apple said no to .gov

 

[oneshotkyle]

To me it's all about principle. And for that reason I'd never own a liberty safe. There are so many better options

 

[OrPackrat]

Liberty should have waited till there was a warrant rather than just grant upon request...

 

[Alexx1401]

Liberty should have waited till there was a warrant rather than just grant upon request...

I have not read all there is on the net but I keep "hearing" they did have a warrant. If they had a warrant for the home that means everything in the home. If law comes to your home with warrant and you have a safe they are not going to go back to the black robe for more. Its open the safe or they will open it. The safe is just a box in the home. Its not magical safe zone where they can't search.

 

[Michael Js]

On Liberty Safes debacle:
Monomoy Capital Partners owns Liberty Safes, this is their donations to political candidates in 2022.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/monomoy-capital-partners/recipients?id=D000035965

 

[lucusloc]

To me it seems a big nothing them giving it to feds. If they want in and can't get in they would just cut it open. So not having the way in easy they would just trash the safe anyway. Its not like they are going to show up and go "ah shucks, foiled again, guess we will just have to go home".

This is not LS's call to make, it is for the owner to make. At best LS can act as an intermediary for the Feds;

"We got a request for the backup code, we can
a. give them the code so they do not cut open your safe
or
b. make them bring us a legal subpoena before we hand over the code
but instead of that they may just decide to
c. cut open your safe
The call is yours."

Taking the decisions away from the customer is a violation of trust an privacy. If they have not disclosed this policy to the customer before hand it may even open them up to civil liability for said violations. No matter how you try to slice it this was a terrible thing for the company to do and they are rightfully suffering for it. Other security companies need to take notes and not follow down the same path.

 

[Nosferatu]

This is not LS's call to make, it is for the owner to make. At best LS can act as an intermediary for the Feds;

"We got a request for the backup code, we can
a. give them the code so they do not cut open your safe
or
b. make them bring us a legal subpoena before we hand over the code
but instead of that they may just decide to
c. cut open your safe
The call is yours."

How Liberty should have responded and earned a bubblegum-ton of positive feedback:

"Cut the effing thing open. We will never supply this information to any third party and certainly don't entertain threats from JBTs".

Then sent the customer a new, upgraded safe.

Pretty cheap positive PR.

But what do I know, I'm just a jackass on the interwebs.

 

[OrPackrat]

I have not read all there is on the net but I keep "hearing" they did have a warrant. If they had a warrant for the home that means everything in the home. If law comes to your home with warrant and you have a safe they are not going to go back to the black robe for more. Its open the safe or they will open it. The safe is just a box in the home. Its not magical safe zone where they can't search.

Are you saying that if someone had an IPhone and for whatever reason the police came to search their place, all the LEO'S have to do is call Apple, say they are searching someone's stuff, and Apple will freely just give access to that device as well as everyone else who has an apple device?

 

[OneArgus]

GOV has a nice special list for those that make life difficult.
Some say why make it easier? They get paid to take 30 days to open it if they have to.
But putting yourself on a list of uncooperative, in and event that will happen with or without you.
Serves little purpose.
And yes there are list of contacts and how they were conducted. Me, hell you want in it go ahead.
They will get in anyways. Why destroys a couple good safes for no reason. And they have to get a code?
Why? I pick my battles, I read this and thought, not cool liberty. But then rational thought caught me and said
F***k them, not letting them get me mad at there actions. I want them to think they are nothing.
And why be a bubblegum, when it serves zero purpose, other then them remember who you are if this gets cleared up.

 

[lucusloc]

How Liberty should have responded and earned a bubblegum-ton of positive feedback:

"Cut the effing thing open. We will never supply this information to any third party and certainly don't entertain threats from JBTs".

Then sent the customer a new, upgraded safe.

Pretty cheap positive PR.

But what do I know, I'm just a jackass on the interwebs.

That would have upgraded them to instant celebrity status, even despite the decline in quality in recent years that I keep hearing about. There are a lot of way they could have handled it, and most of them would have been better than this.

 

[billdeserthills]

Or, and just tossing this out there, don't do things that attract the attention of the PoPo and anyone else that might have the wherewithal to get a search warrant

As a locksmith it does save the customer money when I have the serial number, as far as looking up/opening a safe but that can also work against you, as seen in this thread

 

[Alexx1401]

Are you saying that if someone had an IPhone and for whatever reason the police came to search their place, all the LEO'S have to do is call Apple, say they are searching someone's stuff, and Apple will freely just give access to that device as well as everyone else who has an apple device?

This has been brought up MULTIPLE times and is easy to find. Last I head Apple did refuse to put a back door in for the Law. Last I heard the law did find some 3d party to do so. Again a safe is NOT a magic box. If Police come to your home with warrant in hand that safe is NOT a magic box they can not look in. They will look in the safe. You can "let them in" or they will cut it open. Do you really think they will see the safe and say "damn foiled again" and just leave? In the real world that is not how it works. I did not say I like the way its set up but, I do live in the real world.

 

[lucusloc]

This has been brought up MULTIPLE times and is easy to find. Last I head Apple did refuse to put a back door in for the Law. Last I heard the law did find some 3d party to do so. Again a safe is NOT a magic box. If Police come to your home with warrant in hand that safe is NOT a magic box they can not look in. They will look in the safe. You can "let them in" or they will cut it open. Do you really think they will see the safe and say "damn foiled again" and just leave? In the real world that is not how it works. I did not say I like the way its set up but, I do live in the real world.

And, *again*, this is not the manufacturer's call to make. This is the owner's call to make. If they would prefer the gov to get in without damage, they can give them the code. If they want to make the gov work for it at the cost of the safe they can. No one is saying it is always smart to make the gov open the safe "their way", what people are saying is that LS should not have made this decision for the customer. This is why they will face blowback and boycotts, and yes it is wholly self inflicted and deserved.

 

[OrPackrat]

Is this back door code in specific to that one safe or is it applicable to many safes of that same lock type?

 

[lucusloc]

Is this back door code in specific to that one safe or is it applicable to many safes of that same lock type?

From what LS says, it seems to be specific to each safe. They keep a list of serial numbers and the corresponding backdoor code. I am not sure I like this being a built-in feature, but it does seem to be fairly standard practice for electronic safe locks. What does not seem to be fairly common practice, at lest as far as we know, if for manufacturers to give this fixed code over to law enforcement without legal compulsion. That is the bit that got LS customers (quite rightfully) very angary. If you are going to keep a backdoor code to my safe, I expect you to keep it secret unless you have been directly compelled to divulge it by a court, and even then I am not sure I trust your to actually fight the whole battle all the way through to the end, so maybe just don't keep such a code thankyouverymuch.