I've built my first AR- now what?

[2thdrglock]

The trouble with all the bullet loads listed above is they are jacketed. Their designs all take into consideration lethality on impact, not over penetration of urban/suburban building materials. A situation which might result in an unintended casualty. Which is what the OP was concerned with, if I'm not mistaken.

Of course 100% on target impact would be the best way to prevent bullets escaping from a structure. But in defensive shooting, not all bullets may hit home. Someone else mentioned it above, there is the idea of frangible bullets. Made of copper powder held together with a polymer. Definitely not the most damaging bullet on a soft tissue target but disabling or lethal none the less. And when they hit a solid object, they disintegrate. A person doesn't have to be a reloader to have frangible bullet loads. They are made commercially in many calibers, including handgun.

I'd favor a shotgun for home defense over an AR. With low recoil defensive loads. So this may be another new channel for your firearms interest.

Projectile choice is only a small part of thinking about home defense. Bigger consideration is the unknowable, that is, how the situation is going to come down. To be ready for this, there are many other things to think about. Are you even going to be anywhere near your AR when a home invasion occurs? Or are you gonna be in bed asleep when someone chooses to break in? Lots of other stuff to study on in order to be ready for armed defense. Get an outside dog or two, for starts. Early warning system.

I don't agree with your take on frangible bullets, depending on what you consider to be a "solid object". Watch the video from post #41 above (it has 4 parts). The frangible load went through three walls of sheet rock and exterior siding. The only thing that makes a frangible load disintegrate is something like steel plate apparently. They are a poor choice for a home defensive load due to going through walls in my opinion.

 

[bbbass]

I read an article just morning about this topic. A fellow did a test with real drywall. Set up 3 walls separated by 10'. Used lots of different ammo/weapons/loads. Hornady V-max varmint loads didn't make it past the back side of the first wall, just exploded into small pieces. Winchester Ranger PSP (Pointed Soft Point) and Power Points didn't make it to the second wall, yet have good performance in tissue.

Some of the worst:
9mm penetrated all three walls
.45ACP penetrated only the first wall
AK47 only penetrated two walls
00 buckshot penetrated all three walls and kept on going

I'll see if I can find that article.

.223 Drywall Penetration: Introduction

 

[gmerkt]

There are different designs of frangible bullets. Some (such as used by US Navy) are jacketed. Others are simply powdered copper and polymer. There are variations of this, as well. The old .22 gallery rounds were sintered iron, came apart pretty easily. I haven't done my own testing on any but I suspect the jacketed version penetrates farther. If the Hornady V-Max didn't make it through one layer of sheet rock, that sounds like something that will fill OP's bill.

 

[Capin JRo]

I say get yourself a 12 gage and get ready of the recoil sensetivity.

 

[gmerkt]

I got called away to the dinner table before I could finish my last post.

I watched the video at post #41, the guy said frangible was worst for self defense, at least his version. Over penetration being an issue. So I admit error in thinking they might be superior for close-in shooting. Noted that the exterior test wall lacked sheathing, siding looked fairly thin.

During WW2, the US made frangible .30 cartridges for target practice against aircraft. With thin aluminum skins, the hits would register with a puff of dust as the bullet impacted the aircraft. But weren't supposed to penetrate. The ones I have look like sintered iron, not copper/polymer. Seems like this is the kind of frangible bullet, if currently made, that could be used in built-up areas with some degree of safety.

I've got frangible .224 bullets of both the jacketed and non-jacketed kind. I think I'll make up some test surfaces to fire into just for the heck of it to see how they do. Most homes have (from the inside out) a layer of drywall, insulation, wood sheathing, then some kind of siding. So firing within the house, a stray bullet would have to get through that material and to get into another building, would have to penetrate approximately the same density of material again. Could be a bystander outside, they'd only be protected from a stray bullet by the first echelon of material. In any case, in addition to loss of velocity in flight, I imagine there would be serious loss of velocity from material penetration. And this is where the Hornady V-Max looks real good because it comes all apart on initial impact. I've got some of those in .224 and might just test those along with frangibles.

The .224 frangibles that I have for handloading are:

MK311 Mod 3 (Purple tip) 50 gr. This is a jacketed bullet made for the US military.

"The Mk. 311 round – better known by its ordnance code "AA40" – is loaded with a 50gr frangible bullet, identifiable by a purple tip. The projectile is make of a lead free powder matrix, wrapped in a gilding metal jacket. It is similar to the Mk. 255 Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration (RRLP) round, which has a heavier 62gr bullet. In addition to being used in training at ranges where more robust projectiles might damage the backstops, both Mk. 311 and Mk. 255 see use in special operations both because they reduce the chance of ricochet in close quarters (such as on a ship) and because they offer increased lethality at short ranges. "

Inceptor SSR (Short Range Rifle) 35 gr. The manufacturer says these are made for training on hard steel targets. They make a home defense line of ammo using frangible bullets but not for .223 Rem.

The reason I bought modern frangible bullets wasn't related to home defense. I bought them in case I found myself in an area where lead projectiles are banned. Like central Calif. coast, for example. Or maybe in future Wash. and Ore.

 

[2thdrglock]

I got called away to the dinner table before I could finish my last post.

I watched the video at post #41, the guy said frangible was worst for self defense, at least his version. Over penetration being an issue. So I admit error in thinking they might be superior for close-in shooting. Noted that the exterior test wall lacked sheathing, siding looked fairly thin.

During WW2, the US made frangible .30 cartridges for target practice against aircraft. With thin aluminum skins, the hits would register with a puff of dust as the bullet impacted the aircraft. But weren't supposed to penetrate. The ones I have look like sintered iron, not copper/polymer. Seems like this is the kind of frangible bullet, if currently made, that could be used in built-up areas with some degree of safety.

I've got frangible .224 bullets of both the jacketed and non-jacketed kind. I think I'll make up some test surfaces to fire into just for the heck of it to see how they do. Most homes have (from the inside out) a layer of drywall, insulation, wood sheathing, then some kind of siding. So firing within the house, a stray bullet would have to get through that material and to get into another building, would have to penetrate approximately the same density of material again. Could be a bystander outside, they'd only be protected from a stray bullet by the first echelon of material. In any case, in addition to loss of velocity in flight, I imagine there would be serious loss of velocity from material penetration. And this is where the Hornady V-Max looks real good because it comes all apart on initial impact. I've got some of those in .224 and might just test those along with frangibles.

The .224 frangibles that I have for handloading are:

MK311 Mod 3 (Purple tip) 50 gr. This is a jacketed bullet made for the US military.

"The Mk. 311 round – better known by its ordnance code "AA40" – is loaded with a 50gr frangible bullet, identifiable by a purple tip. The projectile is make of a lead free powder matrix, wrapped in a gilding metal jacket. It is similar to the Mk. 255 Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration (RRLP) round, which has a heavier 62gr bullet. In addition to being used in training at ranges where more robust projectiles might damage the backstops, both Mk. 311 and Mk. 255 see use in special operations both because they reduce the chance of ricochet in close quarters (such as on a ship) and because they offer increased lethality at short ranges. "

Inceptor SSR (Short Range Rifle) 35 gr. The manufacturer says these are made for training on hard steel targets. They make a home defense line of ammo using frangible bullets but not for .223 Rem.

The reason I bought modern frangible bullets wasn't related to home defense. I bought them in case I found myself in an area where lead projectiles are banned. Like central Calif. coast, for example. Or maybe in future Wash. and Ore.

There's a guy here in Oregon that does a lot of defensive training ( hand to hand, handgun, rifle, etc.) and he's real big on frangible at his ranges so he can stop getting pelted with ricochets off the steel! Do you have any experience with 9mm stuff? The video seemed to show that almost all the 9mm went thru all three walls. I agree that the mock outside wall was short a layer of particle board under the siding...I missed that...

 

[titsonritz]

I agree that the mock outside wall was short a layer of particle board under the siding...I missed that...

Plywood not particle board. Plywood is used for its shear value, particle board is fine for underlayment but not for shearwalls.

 

[gmerkt]

Do you have any experience with 9mm stuff?

Not firing it through construction materials. When I test, it's to see how well it works as a component. I have a couple diff. types in 9mm, one a round nose which is powdered copper/polymer. The other is one of the Inceptor designs with the spirals on it, also powdered copper/polymer. I have one (small) box of Ruger's proprietary defense loaded rounds with the spiral, looks like some kind of frangible material.

I have three .40's including a large bag of frangibles in 135 gr weight that I got from Mid-South Shooter Supplies which I think were surplus from GBW (Goldbelt Wolf) which is or was a kind of specialty ammo maker. Got some Inceptor defensive design (evil/nasty looking) in 88 gr. Not long ago bought some Hevi-Shot bismuth .40's in 125 gr. Frangibles tend to run lighter than traditional materials due to reduced density. Most manufacturers provide load data for their product.

Once again, I bought these pistol bullets of non-traditional materials as substitutes for lead content bullets should the need ever arise. Including solid zinc in .40 and .41, which I believe were also surplus from GBW.

After the holidays are past, I'm gonna fabricate some dummy walls and test some of this crap myself just for drill. Including the pistol rounds.

Those .224 MK311 Mod 3 bullets, even though jacketed, must have some damage containment qualities that we've discussed here. At least according to the ATK press info. that was put out.

Plywood not particle board

Maybe he means strandboard (OSB) which I believe may be used for shear strength.

 

[titsonritz]

Maybe he means strandboard (OSB) which I believe may be used for shear strength.

That would make more sense.

 

[2thdrglock]

That would make more sense.

Yup I misspoke due to ignorance of terminology of building materials. That plywood that the outer veneer looks manufactured instead of true wood grain...

 

[2thdrglock]

Not firing it through construction materials. When I test, it's to see how well it works as a component. I have a couple diff. types in 9mm, one a round nose which is powdered copper/polymer. The other is one of the Inceptor designs with the spirals on it, also powdered copper/polymer. I have one (small) box of Ruger's proprietary defense loaded rounds with the spiral, looks like some kind of frangible material.

I have three .40's including a large bag of frangibles in 135 gr weight that I got from Mid-South Shooter Supplies which I think were surplus from GBW (Goldbelt Wolf) which is or was a kind of specialty ammo maker. Got some Inceptor defensive design (evil/nasty looking) in 88 gr. Not long ago bought some Hevi-Shot bismuth .40's in 125 gr. Frangibles tend to run lighter than traditional materials due to reduced density. Most manufacturers provide load data for their product.

Once again, I bought these pistol bullets of non-traditional materials as substitutes for lead content bullets should the need ever arise. Including solid zinc in .40 and .41, which I believe were also surplus from GBW.

After the holidays are past, I'm gonna fabricate some dummy walls and test some of this crap myself just for drill. Including the pistol rounds.

Those .224 MK311 Mod 3 bullets, even though jacketed, must have some damage containment qualities that we've discussed here. At least according to the ATK press info. that was put out.



Maybe he means strandboard (OSB) which I believe may be used for shear strength.

I guess I want 9mm ammo for home defense that when the target is missed it's not going to penetrate outside walls, but if it hits body mass it will expand and stop the bad guy like it is supposed to. I've read that Speer Gold Dot JHP 124gr is a good load. The reason all this came up (and how it is related the OP concerning AR's) is I went to the LGS and marveled at a Grand Power Striborg 9mm he had, and was wondering if it would be a good home defense gun as an alternative to the AR platform. Of course the low cost is what is appealing to me...

 

[gmerkt]

Handguns have typically been more viewed as self defense weapons than rifles. So there has been more thought gone into defensive rounds that have lower probability of over-penetration of structure walls. Like the Glaser safety slug made by Corbon. Which is considered a frangible bullet. It doesn't use polymerized copper material, but has a jacket that contains small lead shot capped by a plastic nose. Supposedly, these will start to come apart seriously as soon as they high anything, soft or hard. This is another one I haven't personally shot into dummy material to see how it does. There are probably other brands/designs I don't know about.

 

[gmerkt]

That plywood that the outer veneer looks manufactured instead of true wood grain...

It looks to me like a siding material called APA, which is made of glue and chipped wood like OSB. It has a decorative side that often has spaced channels cut in it. Comes in different thicknesses, like .322 or .375. Which isn't all that thick, and of course where channeled, even less so. Rated to go directly over studs or over sheathing. Due to the high glue content, might be a little harder than we think.

 

[Antonb2k85]

Your next objective is to learn how to use it. Trying looking into Viking tactics dvds, they have some amazing information and drills you can run at shooting pits. Magpul has some good stuff but they tend to be filled with fluff as well. I'm in Snohomish and shoot In Duvall; if you're near we can meet up and run drills together.

 

[Member 18201]

Interesting conversations regarding rounds penetrating drywall.

Survey the interior of your domicile and calculate how many linear feet of windows are chest high.


.......................................

 

[20ozjolt]

As I remember TAP ammo was a good option in your situation.

 

[9mm guy]

Just an update for those of you who may be interested...

Wow, I never thought this thread would produce this many responses. Thank you to many of you for your wise and insightful posts. Among all the great posts, I really like what Mikej said, "Shoot it like it is until you get a natural urge to add stuff." And that's what I've done. After having shot the AR for a bit but mostly leaving it alone for a while, here's what's happened:

• My opinion remains the same, which is that I do not like the concussion and the recoil force of my AR. It seems excessive than other AR's. I keep wondering if there's something wrong with my AR since when I see people firing their AR's on YouTube, it has very little recoil compared to mine. I actually started another thread asking about this in this section.
• I already wear earplugs beneath my earmuffs.
• I have ordered the Geisselle buffer tube and braided wired spring. Hopefully that should tame some of the recoil and concussion. I am also looking at compensators or muzzle brakes. I'm thinking of the Jerry Miculek DPSM one due to its positive reviews and price. I may start another thread to get everyone's opinion on that.
• I shoot at Tri-County and noticed that people already use the compensators there. Thus I won't feel bad about other shooters feeling the effects of my compensator since others are already doing it to me and I can feel their unpleasant concussions.
• Also Tri-County does not allow shooting at steel using AR's. And so thanks for those suggestions but that's not possible for me.
• If these do not solve the concussion and recoil problem, then I will sell this thing in the future when the market is right; since it is such a bad seller's market right now.

Regarding me not using the AR for home defense due to over-penetration: obviously I was not correct. My own research and other real life examples have shown that the AR will not over-penetrate. However there are still concerns about the lack of maneuverability and the loudness destroying my ears if I fire that thing indoors. I realize these problems can be solved with training and storing ear protection near the AR.

I see the incredible value and versatility of the AR platform. However I still prefer my handguns and the AR has yet to produce the same thrill or enjoyment. But an AR would certainly be useful for a major civil unrest kind of situation such as the Cascadia worst case scenario.

I also did get the CMMG .22LR conversion kit on a great deal on eBay. I have yet to try it out but hopefully that will add to the enjoyment of the AR. I also got an incredible deal on a scope and bipods during black Friday.

I know some people mentioned an AR pistol. If I had the money, I would try that. But what little money I have now will go towards the components and ammo.

Thanks again everyone. I'll see you on other threads.

 

[Ops]

Grow a beard

make fun of anyone you see with a Poverty Pony

 

[Mikej]

Just an update for those of you who may be interested...

Wow, I never thought this thread would produce this many responses. Thank you to many of you for your wise and insightful posts. Among all the great posts, I really like what Mikej said, "Shoot it like it is until you get a natural urge to add stuff." And that's what I've done. After having shot the AR for a bit but mostly leaving it alone for a while, here's what's happened:

• My opinion remains the same, which is that I do not like the concussion and the recoil force of my AR. It seems excessive than other AR's. I keep wondering if there's something wrong with my AR since when I see people firing their AR's on YouTube, it has very little recoil compared to mine. I actually started another thread asking about this in this section.
• I already wear earplugs beneath my earmuffs.
• I have ordered the Geisselle buffer tube and braided wired spring. Hopefully that should tame some of the recoil and concussion. I am also looking at compensators or muzzle brakes. I'm thinking of the Jerry Miculek DPSM one due to its positive reviews and price. I may start another thread to get everyone's opinion on that.
• I shoot at Tri-County and noticed that people already use the compensators there. Thus I won't feel bad about other shooters feeling the effects of my compensator since others are already doing it to me and I can feel their unpleasant concussions.
• Also Tri-County does not allow shooting at steel using AR's. And so thanks for those suggestions but that's not possible for me.
• If these do not solve the concussion and recoil problem, then I will sell this thing in the future when the market is right; since it is such a bad seller's market right now.

Regarding me not using the AR for home defense due to over-penetration: obviously I was not correct. My own research and other real life examples have shown that the AR will not over-penetrate. However there are still concerns about the lack of maneuverability and the loudness destroying my ears if I fire that thing indoors. I realize these problems can be solved with training and storing ear protection near the AR.

I see the incredible value and versatility of the AR platform. However I still prefer my handguns and the AR has yet to produce the same thrill or enjoyment. But an AR would certainly be useful for a major civil unrest kind of situation such as the Cascadia worst case scenario.

I also did get the CMMG .22LR conversion kit on a great deal on eBay. I have yet to try it out but hopefully that will add to the enjoyment of the AR. I also got an incredible deal on a scope and bipods during black Friday.

I know some people mentioned an AR pistol. If I had the money, I would try that. But what little money I have now will go towards the components and ammo.

Thanks again everyone. I'll see you on other threads.

That's the way this place works. You ask a question and help comes out of the woodwork. Then different opinions start popping. Then the topic morphs/multiplies into several other topics. Which, if you think about it, shouldn't matter after you've had 30, or more, responses to your query. If you're wound a little tight, or sensitive, you'll read stuff that annoys you. The key is to not take it personally. There's a lot of different opinions here and there's bound to be some disagreement. IMO all that is a big part of what makes this site special.

Here's hoping you're new parts make that rifle more tolerable for you. Cheers.

 

[9mm guy]

By the way, Mikej's post reminds me that I forgot to say something in my last post. Nothing on this thread that's been posted has bothered me and I certainly did not feel insulted or disparaged in any manner. Unlike our ideological opponents, we generally do not get offended easily. My reaction tends to be a shrug and a yawn. Anyways, take care everyone.