House Committee Votes to Hold Eric Holder in Contempt of Congress!

[Norm0931]

The Issa thing is anything but about finding out the truth. Holder is just a proxy for Obama. If Issa cared about the truth he would realize that in his request for more documents he was asking Holder to do something illegal.

If you think Issa is looking for the truth then shine on you crazy diamond.

You keep saying it's Illegal. How exactly is the group that monitors you for shady business asking for full disclosure of your records illegal? That's their whole reason for existence.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

The Issa thing is anything but about finding out the truth. Holder is just a proxy for Obama. If Issa cared about the truth he would realize that in his request for more documents he was asking Holder to do something illegal....

What, specifically, is Issa asking for that is illegal?

 

[DMax]

The Issa thing is anything but about finding out the truth. Holder is just a proxy for Obama. If Issa cared about the truth he would realize that in his request for more documents he was asking Holder to do something illegal.

If you think Issa is looking for the truth then shine on you crazy diamond.

Are you a lawyer? is that your prof opinion or personal opinion? How about some of that proof and facts you seem to thrive on. Inquiring minds just got to know.

 

[Doc Maker]

See US v. Nixon where the Supreme Court stated: "the valid need for protection of communications between high Government officials and those who advise and assist them in the performance of their manifold duties" and that "[h]uman experience teaches that those who expect public dissemination of their remarks may well temper candor with a concern for appearances and for their own interests to the detriment of the decisionmaking process."

This means that documentation of deliberations by the Executive are protected to give those involved the freedom to give advice without an armchair quarterback in congress second guessing them with the benefit of hindsight. Any team working through a problem will discuss many options, even ones that are not popular.

 

[Bigfoot]

Nice try. As Nixon found out, executive privilege does not cover criminal activity.

As I posted earlier, the requested documents are for the period after the case was closed. They want to find out who lied to congress, a crime.

Try again?

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

The deliberative process privilege is a qualified privilege and can be overcome by a sufficient showing of need. ... For example, where there is reason to believe the documents sought may shed light on government misconduct, ‘the privilege is routinely denied,' on the grounds that shielding internal government deliberations in this context does not serve ‘the public's interest in honest, effective government.'"

(In re Sealed Case (Espy)) <broken link removed>

 

[joken]

Here it is in plain english. I'm confident that even Kevtac and the other Liberal Obama lovers here won't be able to spin this into something it isn't.

Obama Orders Launched Fast and Furious - YouTube

 

[Jamie6.5]

The Issa thing is anything but about finding out the truth. Holder is just a proxy for Obama. If Issa cared about the truth he would realize that in his request for more documents he was asking Holder to do something illegal.

If you think Issa is looking for the truth then shine on you crazy diamond.

Brian Terry's family lives in Issa's Congressional district. Mr. Issa was contacted by Senator Grassley to spearhead this investigation as head of the Congressional Oversight Committee.
As their representative chairman, he is obligated to work on behalf of Americans to see that any and all government employees and or policies, that contributed to the death of their son Officer Terry is investigated.
And the perpetrators brought to justice.

Throughout this thread, it has been pointed out time and again, with many factual references, that the policies and practices involved in the implementation of Fast and Furious lacked even the most basic principles of common sense or sound law enforcement.
As a result, whether through direct or indirect violation(S) of our laws, a significant number of people are DEAD.
Furthermore, according to documents thus far uncovered, significant evidence of obfuscation and a cover-up at the highest levels of our government has been perpetrated to hide the identities of those officials involved in the planning and implementation of it.

Accusations of partisanship against Issa, and republicans in Congress over the investigation into these atrocities stand logic, reason and American values on their heads.

Doing so begs a question about the philosophy of governance of those that would promote and/or protect these people, regardless of political affiliation.

Has the left wing of American politics sunk so low in their respect for human life, and the principles of justice, as to forgive/ignore their leader's actions when they plan, perpetrate and/or participate in an atrocity like Fast and Furious?
To ignore the ramifications of a cover-up of same?

And if that is your position, how dare you point fingers and claim "partisanship" is behind the investigation?
Especially when the argument you so proudly champion, is prima-facie evidence that "partisanship" is at the very root of YOUR desire to protect those you favor politically.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

oops

That's gonna leave a mark.

 

[joken]

Hear, Hear!

 

[Chee-to]

Quote Originally Posted by Trlsmn View Post
Can someone give me a credible understandable reason why anyone would be defending holder and his boss for willfully stabbing us gun owners in the back? It makes no sense

Has THIS entire episode, in any way:
1) Infringed upon your right to buy a firearm?
2) Resulted in any law, passed by Congress, that restricts your purchase, ownership or use of a firearm?
3) Affected any change in your personal, daily exercise of your 2a rights?

Not me, I've actually seen my collection grow. Since the GOP has the House, there's NO WAY that any anti-gun legislation will be passed. The State legislature is most likely to attempt to infringe on our rights.

Only because they got busted getting people murdered......This whole fiasco was about working up public sympathy for another "AWB" ...........That's the "stab in the back !"

 

[8ball]

Brian Terry's family lives in Issa's Congressional district.

Not true. Issa's district is in California, Terry was born in Michigan and his parents live in Jonesville, Michigan.

<broken link removed>

Jonesville, Mich. &#8212; Border Patrol agent Brian A. Terry, 40, was killed by Mexican bandits in the Arizona mountains near Nogales Tuesday, Dec. 14. Terry is the son of Kent Terry and the stepson of Carolyn Terry, who live in Jonesville.

Also:

A spokeswoman for Michigan Democratic Rep. John Dingell, the Terry family's lifelong congressman, told The Daily Caller that he's glad to see the act pass the House and Senate. "Representative Dingell is sorrowful at the death of Brian Terry, a committed and brave public servant," Dingell spokeswoman Betsy Barrett told TheDC. "Mr. Terry's life and service deserves to be honored in the proper way, and Congressman Dingell is glad to see the passage of the Brian A. Terry Memorial Act."

As far as Issa is concerned, it wouldn't matter where Terry came from. Issa is a publicity hound, and he's just spoiling for election year press.

 

[deen_ad]

Thus my claims of gross negligence and incompetence. It wasn't that they were doing anything new or even that difficult. They just screwed it up royally and then lied about it. Part of it has to do with the fact that the Mexican government is now solely owned by the drug cartels. Still, they knew the Mexican government was now too corrupt to cooperate and I cannot help but think the current AG wanted the project to go bad so they could point to all the guns the US sent to Mexican criminals. They just didn't count on a citizen being killed with one and the whole thing blowing up in their faces.

They didn't "screw up royally", it was done on purpose to allow the maximum number of weapons to flow into Mexico to back up claims that most of the guns going into Mexico we sold in the US. Thereby building sentiment for another and more onerous weapons ban.
Nothing else mattered, just get the guns flowing into Mexico.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

They didn't "screw up royally", it was done on purpose to allow the maximum number of weapons to flow into Mexico to back up claims that most of the guns going into Mexico we sold in the US. Thereby building sentiment for another and more onerous weapons ban.
Nothing else mattered, just get the guns flowing into Mexico.

Gasp! Are you suggesting it was a conspiracy???? NO!!!

 

[Kevatc]

Are you a lawyer? is that your prof opinion or personal opinion? How about some of that proof and facts you seem to thrive on. Inquiring minds just got to know.

I will walk back my illegal comment. Even though AG Holder has stated himself that it would be illegal to provide some of the documents that Issa et al are wanting the AG's claims of not wanting to violate the executive privilege probably isn't 100% accurate. However, it's up to Issa et al to show that the committee's request is paramount (my words) in further investigation of the issue.

This statement is attributed to Justice Kennedy: "Once executive privilege is asserted, coequal branches of the Government are set on a collision course. The Judiciary is forced into the difficult task of balancing the need for information in a judicial proceeding and the Executive's Article II prerogatives. This inquiry places courts in the awkward position of evaluating the Executive's claims of confidentiality and autonomy, and pushes to the fore difficult questions of separation of powers and checks and balances. These 'occasion for constitutional confrontation between the two branches' are likely to be avoided whenever possible. United States v. Nixon, supra, at 692."[9]

Further, on June 28, 2007, Bush invoked executive privilege in response to congressional subpoenas requesting documents from former presidential counsel Harriet Miers and former political director Sara Taylor,[10] citing that:

The reason for these distinctions rests upon a bedrock presidential prerogative: for the President to perform his constitutional duties, it is imperative that he receive candid and unfettered advice and that free and open discussions and deliberations occur among his advisors and between those advisors and others within and outside the Executive Branch.




Not sure if the question should be about the legality of Holder not wanting to violate executive privilege or if it should be about the intelligence of such a decision. I will admit that one of Obama's promises was a more transparent government but invoking executive privilege in this instance (and the only one so far) certainly does't fit into the tranparency he had promised. Additionally, it seems to have sparked a huge amount of conspiracy theory regarding his stance on the gun issue. The 2A is no longer the wedge issue it once was. Certainly the NRA wants it to be but they really are only fighting against a very small but vocal anti-gun movement.

I continue to stick to my guns and stand my ground that Issa has had an axe to grind since the first seconds after the Obama inauguration. I can't help but think that much of Issa's behavior during the committee hearings is to play to a base that wants nothing but failure and embarassment for the Obama administration. Issa is using this issue and Holder as proxy for trying to take down the administration in whatever way possible. Can you honestly say that Issa would be pursuing this issue with this amount of zeal if this were a Republican administration?

 

[Grunwald]

....
I continue to stick to my guns and stand my ground that Issa has had an axe to grind since the first seconds after the Obama inauguration. I can't help but think that much of Issa's behavior during the committee hearings is to play to a base that wants nothing but failure and embarassment for the Obama administration. Issa is using this issue and Holder as proxy for trying to take down the administration in whatever way possible. Can you honestly say that Issa would be pursuing this issue with this amount of zeal if this were a Republican administration?

Most likely he would not. However a better question is - would he work to block the investigation as the democrats are doing. I do not believe he would, however in this supercharged political climate, one never knows. I suspect that if this was a case involving a republican administration there would be an independent special prosecutor doing the investigation.....and there should be (considering that this fiasco involves the DOJ)

 

[salmonriverjohn]

I can't help but think that much of Issa's behavior during the committee hearings is to play to a base that wants nothing but failure and embarassment for the Obama administration.

I don't think he needs Issa to carry his water for him as he's doing a stellar job of it all on his own

 

[Jamie6.5]

I continue to stick to my guns and stand my ground that Issa has had an axe to grind since the first seconds after the Obama inauguration. I can't help but think that much of Issa's behavior during the committee hearings is to play to a base that wants nothing but failure and embarassment for the Obama administration. Issa is using this issue and Holder as proxy for trying to take down the administration in whatever way possible. Can you honestly say that Issa would be pursuing this issue with this amount of zeal if this were a Republican administration?

You do that Kev. If you'll remove your blue glasses, you'll see that it's not about embarrassment or political points.
As soon as this admin fires or reprimands or demotes or somehow otherwise punishes SOMEONE OTHER than the whistleblowers in/of the FAST and Furious fiasco, I'll take your claim seriously.

But until that time, I'll stick to my guns, and keep reminding people that as Americans, we don't believe in anyone being above the law. Even the Attorney General, and the President if need be.
During his time in the Senate obama supported legislation that would have allowed gun manufacturers to be sued for damages when someone was killed illegally with a gun. People that supply guns illegally are regularly held accountable when a murder is committed, in both criminal and in civil court.

As a direct result of Fast and Furious, people are DEAD. A LOT of people. And thus far, NO ONE has been held accountable!!
That makes Barack Obama one of the biggest hypocrites I can remember in my 40+ years of following politics!

So how about we hold this president accountable for Brian Terry's, and Jaime Zapata's death?
His Attorney General?
How about we see the reinstatement of John Dodson and Vincent Cefalu to their former positions at ATF?
How about we see Mr holder do something about the mid level planners of Fast and Furious, like being demoted/reprimanded instead of transferring them to offices in D.C. where they can be watched and/or promoted.

If Issa is keeping this issue front and center that's a good thing.

Especially if it brings to light why Eric Holder's Department of inJustice thought it would be such a great idea to allow thousand of guns to be walked across our southern border and into the hands of criminal drug cartels and their enforcers.

Until Americans see justice done, lefties can snivel all they want about Issa, I don't care.
I, like most American gun owners, want to see some heads roll over this fiasco.
And if you don't think that's "fair," I guess you'll have to take a tough "luck" pill.

 

[Jamie6.5]

As far as Issa is concerned, it wouldn't matter where Terry came from. Issa is a publicity hound, and he's just spoiling for election year press.Issa is chairman of the Congressional Committee for government oversight, and he's doing the job he was elected/appointed to do

Fix't that for you.

 

[Bigfoot]

I continue to stick to my guns and stand my ground that Issa has had an axe to grind since the first seconds after the Obama inauguration. I can't help but think that much of Issa's behavior during the committee hearings is to play to a base that wants nothing but failure and embarassment for the Obama administration. Issa is using this issue and Holder as proxy for trying to take down the administration in whatever way possible. Can you honestly say that Issa would be pursuing this issue with this amount of zeal if this were a Republican administration?

Ya think? What's your point? No, Issa would not be investigating if the Administration was R, he's a R himself. But so what, that's how it works. He's a junkyard dog now because it's in his self interest to find out who was behind this monumentally stupid government overreach that got hundreds killed. I'm cheering him not because I like him but because I want to know what highly paid idiot thought so little of us that they thought they could get away with this international clusterfk.

Issa is just the face of the investigation that the Ds use as a diversion. Just like the Rs demonized Fitzgerald in the Plame investigation. If Issa stepped down nothing would change except Gowdy or another R would get the attention.

You mentioned Nixon and Bush investigations. Are you of the opinion that the Ds that pushed those investigations weren't doing so partially out of self interest?