High Prices for Arms and Ammo... it's just not American

[CascadeSam]

Ps to cascade Sam,

I have a rifle that I am not particularky attached to. I could double my money on it. Everytime I think of doing that, I have to think what is the root cause of our current pricing climate? Personally, as a Christian, I do not want to profit, even indirectly from a massacre. And before accusations of me being soft or whatever come....Let me just remind you. (Universal you, not you, Sam) Being callous and indifferent to the pain of others does not make you tough. It just makes you an @$$ hole.

michaels,

Good comment. Thanks. You're right, it is morally wrong to profit from a massacre. I haven't been looking at it so much in that context as I simply have ammo or other market prices in 2013 Q1. I don't think you're being soft. I think you're being morally strong and honorable.

 

[akmewon]

I am gonna add you to my ignore list for the fact that when I want to sell something I wiil base it off what I payed .I am not in business to make money off firearm and related items and seeing that you are I WILL NOT give you the chance to profit off of me.you are trying to sell an ar 600 over the IN STOCK price....good grief

 

[michaels]

Cascade, thank you.

I think people forget what the current pricing is based on.

I also thank god that I don't have to sell my guns to make ends meet. In which case if someone took advantage of the current market prices, I personally would not criticize them.

What gets me is when people post high prices, and get all whiny when someone criticizes them.

 

[unklekippy]

It's strange to me that the profits are only to be divided amongst the wealthy. If the gun stores(the ones that actually have an MSRP to worry about. Anyone aying attention to MSRP on a used gun is a fool.) mark a rifle/ammunition/handgun/magazine over MSRP it's not a big deal. When a rivate citizen, with no contract at all with the manufacturer, sells for what he deems the firearm to be worth, we have a free market. Demands that he sell only at a loss or very minimal profit sounds alot like a controlled market to me.

For the record, someone cleaning the shelves at retail outlets, then selling from their bedroom at 2 or 3 x's the price is a bit crazy. I am amused at how many people had PILES of primers and whathaveyou prior to 12/14, and are now selling them at a minor profit. All while keeping these "lists" of those who gouged.

No matter who these folks are, they are concerned about one thing. THEIR RIGHT TO PROFITEER. They have serious problems with your profit, but always have a reason why they have 1,000,000 primers(all being sold at $5/100), yet balk when someone wants to buy a castle with the kingly sum of $6/100.

No wonder I have stayed away for a few days. The BS and posturing on this site is a joke. Most of the "DON'T GOUGE" screams come from someone who is gouging you very slowly, because he has all the supply, while shouting down Joe Schmoe that found 100 srp at Bi'Mart.

The lesson is, anyone selling cases of cases of primers, while screaming about what others do are the wolves in your hen house. Be leery of those on here posing as the voice of the people as far as who should and should not be boycotted. This is America. The people don't need a self proclaimed voice, we all have our own.

So? Anybody want to buy hard-cup Wolf .223 primers? Only $15/100. Kip

 

[CLT65]

I sold off quite a bit in the last few months, including a bunch of guns and ammo at a gun show in early December. I was out of work and needed to move for a job. The only way I was able to afford to move was to sell a bunch of gun stuff. I don't regret it.

That was my first and only time with my own table at a gun show. It was quite interesting. It was after the election but before the tragedy in Connecticut. Prices were high, but not sky-high yet. I priced my stuff at what I thought was the high side of reasonable but when I finally got a chance to walk around I saw I was about the lowest in the show. It was still interesting to watch people and their reactions. I had a couple people who were downright rude, saying my prices were robbery and making low ball offers. No I'm not going to sell them my USGI 30-06 ammo in M1 clips for 25 cents a round because that's what I probably bought it for a few years back. Who's trying to rob who?

As to gouging, I see both sides of it myself. On the one hand in a free society people are free to buy or not buy, sell or not sell, at the price they choose. Nobody's forcing you to sell or buy anything. That's the legal side of it, our system of capitalism.

On the other hand there is a matter of personal ethics. Sometimes I see people at gun shows with prices even beyond the current crazy prices. When you talk to them, it's because "all this stuff's going to be banned! Buy it now while you can! The price will only go up!". Yes, that's capitalism. Greed is the ugly side of capitalism. Don't get me wrong- I believe bad capitalism is still better than good communism, but it's not perfect. Any human system is only as good as the humans involved. Sure, he has that right to be a greedy jerk and troll for suckers, but I have the right to think he's an unethical jerk and ignore him. Some people really are "greedy capitalist pigs", and I say that as a capitalist. I don't get in their face and yell at them though. I just walk on by. The world is full of them; ever been to a used car lot?

Not everyone who sells high is that way though. Bi-Mart can keep their prices low because ammo is a very small part of their business. The fact that they can't get much to sell doesn't affect their bottom line much at all. The small gun shop is different. When the shelves are bare he has nothing to sell and can't make money to stay in business. So he sells the occasional overpriced gun or ammo shipment; he's going to have to make a bit more per sale just to keep the doors open, and he probably had to pay more to get it.

I sold my AK recently, too. I sold it to an acquaintance, for more than they were going for last year, but below gun-show prices. I tried to talk him out of it, telling him I thought the price was too high, but I really couldn't go lower because I could sell it quick for at least that elsewhere, and if he waited a few months he could likely get one cheaper. Nope, he wanted it and thought it was a great deal. I made some money on it, from a friend to boot. Am I bad?

Another story about an acquaintance who sold a rifle to a buddy several years ago. It was during one of these scares when "scary guns" where going crazy high. His buddy bugged him to sell him his AK or whatever it was. "Come on man, I really need one. We're buddies, give me a good deal!" He sold it to him cheap (real cheap IIRC). He found out later that his "buddy" turned around and sold it a few days later for more than double.

So, what have I contributed to this discussion? Not much really. Those who list their stuff for high prices will still do so, waiting for someone to come along and pay it. Those who complain about the gougers will still do so, shouting in the wind in hopes of stopping greedy people from being greedy. I'm not naive enough to think I can change peoples minds with a simple post on an internet forum.

 

[CLT65]

I think people forget what the current pricing is based on.

While I can appreciate and to a point agree with your intentions here, I don't think the current pricing is based on the horrific tragedy in Connecticut. It is a result of the rush by the left in this country to exploit the tragedy for their own political goals.

 

[CascadeSam]

michaels,

You're welcome. Personally, even if I disagree about something being advertised for sale for whatever reason, I am going to attempt not criticizing since it is not my ad. I think CLT65's comment above also makes sense. Currently, the increasingly higher prices and scarcity of ammo is at this this point a result of the gun-grabbers political behavior. If the gun-grabbers had not reacted as they have within hours of the CT shooting and continued their endless anti-gun moves then people would not be buying ammo and other gun-related products in bulk of out of the fear of new laws.

 

[unklekippy]

I feel we need to be fair here. We(the "gun culture") did a fine job of working ourselves up into a frenzy in the hours-weeks after 12/14. People were hording as the empty casings hit the ground. It took the lib's a few hours longer to get up to our level of frenzy. I hate to admit it, but that is exactly what happened. Kip.

 

[MinnesotaORnewbie]

Point taken, I agree and edited it out. not called for

Minnesota,

I'm with you.
(Except for the part about "jewguns", but whatever)

Elk hunt,

Look, even in a "free market capitalist society" there is such a thing as price gouging.

If you're going to price gouge, just do it. And get a thick skin about doing it.
You hate hearing people whine about prices? I hate hearing whine about how "its not gouging"
And then backing it up with a lecture on capitalism.
So many political science, economics, and constitutional law professors on this site!
And to think they all do this part time after working their day jobs!



This is an example of false equivalence.
Buying pmags, 22lr, and AR's (buying not machining and building)
and then reselling for a higher price is a completely different animal than building custom work.

I knew a cabinet maker, who made custom cabinets. When people would talk about IKEA and pricing, gr would pull out the IKEA catalog. And he would show them how much cheaper IKEA was. And let them know of they wanted IKEA prices, they could shop there.

But again, buying and reselling a rifle, that's not making a rifle.

So yes Dorothy, there is such a thing as price gouging.

So, either do it, or don't.

But don't do it and write a post about how you're a great guy and people shouldn't criticize you.

 

[michaels]

Clt65,


The massacre at sandy hook is the root cause.
The politicians, and more importantly the excitablity of gun folks is secondary.
Like I said, if you (generic you) need to sell guns to make ends meet, I'm going to be the last to give you a hard time about it.
But if this is a hobby, or cheaper than dirt scam, or whatever, then yes ill call it gouging.
And like I've said before, if your going to gouge, then gouge.
No skin off my back.
Just don't cry when someone calls you out on it.
That's all I'm saying.

 

[michaels]

Sam,

It definitely is a chicken or the egg argument.

But there was a tragedy involved either way.

 

[nick1980]

 

[CLT65]

Yes, I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain degree. It made me ill when I went to the first show after the shooting and saw some people giddy with excitement , eagerly marking all their prices up in anticipation of fleecing the suckers. Not all by any means and maybe that's a harsh statement, but with some you could just see the dollar signs in their eyes.

On the other hand, if a tragedy like that happens and nobody is calling for gun control, there would not be a rush to buy guns "while they still can".

My only point is, people aren't buying guns because they saw a massacre and thought "Gee, I need a gun so I can massacre people too".
They are thinking "Gee, there's talk of banning guns. I better buy one while I still can."

My only point is that while the lefties used the massacre to push gun control, it's the gun ban talk that actually caused the panic. I know it's a small distinction, kind of a chicken or egg thing like you say, but I guess I better shut up before someone accuses me of beating the proverbial dead horse.

 

[Trick]

I hope you get your asking price. Sorry about the "crapping" on your thread, but when there are so many a$$holes in the world you have to expect to step in a sh1t pile every now and then.

All this talk about poo is making be hungry for some refried beans and cheese.....yum!

 

[elkhunt58]

Wow, I came home to a lot of traffic on this post... a few comments.

In my opinion, MSRP is a function of manufacturers and retail dealers, it doesn't come to bear in the used market. I set prices by searching the market to see what is being asked and pick a price that I think will make a sale, and often I have to lower prices to find the real market. If I paid more for the gun than the market will support, I don't sell that gun, but hold on hoping things will change. Only I know what I paid for a gun and when I bought it...

I own guns for a number of reasons; hunting, competition shooting, fun, nostalgia and more recently investment. So for me a gun does represent a commodity, and like any commodity they are best when bought well and sold profitably. I have done this with other interests; guitars, amps, bicycles, motorcycles, cars, knives and cameras. So yes, I try to profit on every sale I make, "try" being the operative word. I also assume the guy I am buying from is trying to profit from of me, and don't resent him that effort or profit. I can walk away anytime feeling the profit is too high or say "I want that gun and will pay his price", and to me that is the "true value" of that gun on that day (crime, wars, shortages, hoarding, gouging all factored in).

To those who feel profiting in gun sales is wrong (or you have a margin that we all need to abide by), I hope you are consistent in this belief and inform the seller he's too low before you buy an "underpriced" item. If it's wrong to profit off a sale, it's just as wrong to profit off a purchase. I have and do inform widows and heirs (kids who don't know guns) if they are priced too low, but I figure anyone who registers on a firearm forum considers themselves a buyer and seller of firearms and I trust they can fend for themselves, have good judgement and their best interests at heart.

Guns are different than bread. One is a luxury the other a necessity. For me to watch my neighbor starve because I have the corner on the bread market is, in my opinion, morally wrong. To watch my neighbors look of disappointment on his face because he cannot afford my Ed Brown is not in the same category. He should buy and sell a few guns and then come buy my EB (commodity) at market value.

As for these "new" members (MinnesotaORnewbie) who have ruined everything, I have a different opinion. MinnORnewbie, I am glad you joined the forum, you most likely brought new guns to the market and have purchased a few along the way. If it's the same guys selling the same guns... yawn. Every forum needs new blood, it's those that feel it's "theirs" and only "theirs" that in my opinion make the place sort of stuffy and in some cases rude. You told me to "take your junk and go else where. this site doesn't need these "new" members." I am sorry you feel that way, but that's sure your right. Frankly, I have offered and sold some very nice firearms since I joined, a lot of guys are real happy with the classic and modern arms they have bought from me. But that aside, I want to welcome you to the forum and it would appear (based on your screen name) to Oregon. I was born in Oregon in 58' and joined the forum in 09' glad to have you in both.

Modly you said... "Let me make this clear, since you seem to be telling us that we aren't "Freedom loving Americans" because we refuse to pay more than MSRP." I don't know how I can force (hence you refuse) anyone to pay more than MSRP? I post a gun, build in some profit and hope someone wants that gun for that price. Your buying my gun at any price has no bearing on your patriotism. I have no idea what kind of Americans are on this forum, frankly I would guess you might be the most freedom loving of all Americans! I did say "when did gun guys become whiney socialists"... which brings me to my conclusion.

I was accused of whining about whiners... and that statement is correct. My initial post does come off whiney, I should have just dealt with BobD on my AR post and called it good. It would have worked out great, BobD and I squared up and alls well. Thanks though for the input, always something to learn.

 

[CascadeSam]

elkhunt58,

Tonight, over dinner with a glass of wine, I will raise a toast to you.

 

[Modly]

I own guns for a number of reasons; hunting, competition shooting, fun, nostalgia and more recently investment. So for me a gun does represent a commodity, and like any commodity they are best when bought well and sold profitably. I have done this with other interests; guitars, amps, bicycles, motorcycles, cars, knives and cameras. So yes, I try to profit on every sale I make, "try" being the operative word. I also assume the guy I am buying from is trying to profit from of me, and don't resent him that effort or profit. I can walk away anytime feeling the profit is too high or say "I want that gun and will pay his price", and to me that is the "true value" of that gun on that day (crime, wars, shortages, hoarding, gouging all factored in).

You have a different view of buying items than I do. I never buy a car that I intend to use with the idea that I can turn it around and sell it for a profit in a year. Items with wear and use will diminish the value substantially. The only items I would buy with the intention of making a profit on the sale after owning are things that have a stock market value. I don't bank on the idea that I'll end up with the very last iPhone in existence, so it will be worth 3x what I paid for it.

Guns are a similar thing for me. I buy guns to use, abuse, and operate as a tool. My Glock has 4000+ rounds down the pipe, and has very obvious holster wear. It functions fine, and I trust my life on that, but in the normal gun market, I couldn't sell it for what I paid for it.

If your gun is a true collectors item, by all means, buy it with the intention of selling it for a profit... But if they still are churning them out at the factory, It's like buying the only Chevy Silverado in metallic blue on the lot, driving it for a few months, and selling it to a guy who really wanted that colour.... For $3k more than you paid for it. It's not very realistic.

Buying a hammer and a chop saw aren't investments. They are tools to provide you a service. You won't find anybody that will pay top dollar for that hammer after you've used it. It's a beat up tool.

 

[Tracer1951]

I have read all of the posts on this thread and here is my take on things

Sellers vs buyers; profit vs fair prices; selling to friends and having them flip the sale for profits.......

If I sell a gun, I sell it for a certain amount to a person...period. If that person keeps it or sells it thats not my business its their property to do with as they please. I don't sell a gun and then worry about it after its sold.

For ammo or for guns ...if I want to buy either... I look for the best prices! There is only so much I will pay for either so I will either pay or pass.
I don't think anyone is buying or selling to me as some favor or because I am a good guy or I am in need ....

If I want ammo or a gun and can't get some or one ... well that is just the breaks of the situation and reality.
Poor planning or being caught off guard is on me, end of story.

If you have it and I want it I will buy it, if not I will do without.
I will remember today and apply the knowledge for the future.
Its called personal responsibility....

 

[tacticalgunner]

I think the question lies, "Is gouging the American way" and "is gouging capitolism"
Take the first one, is Gouging the American way. My answer, yes.
That is what has broke this country right now. Inflation has surpassed average wage. We in America think our products are superior, when in fact, they are not. Look at the vehicles on the road, Look at a 2000 Toyota truck, now look at the GM models, ford and Dodge. The US models look like they been in a war. Paint is terrible, panels warped, falling off, major mechanical. Toyota driven in the same condition, still looks 75% original, no major mechanical, etc. But, the price of a US model is a ton more. Reason, pride in product. We don't have pride anymore. We have Unions, telling us what we can and should do, non to take pride in your product. So we run the price up to cover union paid employees that don't care about a darn thing, and they wonder why GM does not profit.
So running up the price, yes we do that, and its fine, same reason US cars don't sell.
Is capitolism gouging. No, I don't think so. Gouging is product is suggested of this amount (1200), you sell is for 1800 to take advantage of the supply vs demand situations.
Capitolism is this: I can make the product at 5.00, sell it for 7.50. Demand rises and it sells now for 6.50, made for 3.50 for reasons of production. Supplier sales to 10 stores. Product sales for 8.50 on most shelves, Store A says, I can sell that same product at a smaller margin, but more units at 8.00, where is the people going to buy at?

So its not even a Socialist issue on here. Its someone trying to overprice his stuff to gain the most profit. Who will buy it, who knows, looks like on here the weapons are going for prices all over the board. Should people call him out, absolutely, how many have walked in to a store, seen the cost way above somewhere else and told the clerk, wow, i can buy this at keiths, or NWA for a lot less.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I was that snarky poster. I'm sorry. I didn't really manage to engage my "stop being a dick" safety switch. I generally don't do that sort of thing, and I apologize.

I didn't really intend to complain about the person charging the price, as much as the price itself, and as I just said in the thread, it was an unthinking comment motivated by my rifle envy.

You just earned a ton of respect from me.