Gun and NFA Trust / Sporting Systems Vancouver

[11Charlie]

@SportingSys Thank you!

 

[ZigZagZeke]

There are a couple of fine points here in my situation. I'm not yet into anything NFA. I am worried about my ARs being banned. If, as I've heard in some quarters, legislation might include grandfathering ARs for only the lifetime of the owner, with no provision for transfers or inheritances, I wanted some protection from that. I'm 70 this year, and I can envision that 5 or 10 years down the road there's a possibility that I won't be here. So I made my wife and myself Trustees (me being the Settlor), and my youngest daughter (3 yo) the beneficiary. My older daughter (7 yo) and grandkids are the secondary beneficiaries. Since these are all immediate family there should be no need to think about BGCs.

I purposely avoided making my wife the primary beneficiary because upon my death that would transfer ownership to her, ending the trust. That would probably be prohibited by such legislation, because it would be transferring a banned weapon. Trusteeship provides both of us with control and the right to buy and sell guns under the trust. New guns can be added by simply filling out the form and seeing a notary (free at my bank). In the event of my death, the trust would hold my prohibited guns for my youngest daughter until she is (presumably) 21 yo. That would give my survivors time to move to a different state, sell them without a time crunch, or for the legislation to change.

It also means that I have the same protections set up for all of my other firearms, should the nutjobs prevail and outlaw all semi-autos, pistols included, or worse. As long as they don't pass legislation that would allow them to come gather them up, as long as they can be kept if you already own them, then they can be protected if they are put into the trust when the legislation is proposed and looks like it might pass. It only takes 30 minutes to do it.

 

[11Charlie]

I get where you're coming from @ZigZagZeke i have had the same thoughts. That is why it was so important to me to find a gun trust that would live on and never go away.

With the trust being the owner then it would take a very specific law for anyone to loose anything in that trust.

 

[Sporting Systems]

I get where you're coming from @ZigZagZeke i have had the same thoughts. That is why it was so important to me to find a gun trust that would live on and never go away.

With the trust being the owner then it would take a very specific law for anyone to loose anything in that trust.

Bingo. The successor grantor becomes the responsible party, the trust lives on. There is no transfer of ownership because the trust lives on in perpetuity as long as there is a succession plan for successor grantors. Wife, child, grand child. It will require maintenance over the years, but the trust can stay alive as long as you want it to.

 

[aaroncho]

I'm new to the Vancouver area and new to PNW in general. In my old state, Assachusetts, basically all NFA items were illegal...So I've set up a trust already, and am doing the paperwork for an SBR, but I have a question...who do I put down as the CLEO? Vancouver PD? or the Sheriff dept.? Also, where do I go to get fingerprinted?

 

[11Charlie]

I'm new to the Vancouver area and new to PNW in general. In my old state, Assachusetts, basically all NFA items were illegal...So I've set up a trust already, and am doing the paperwork for an SBR, but I have a question...who do I put down as the CLEO? Vancouver PD? or the Sheriff dept.? Also, where do I go to get fingerprinted?

I would suggest that you go into Sporting Systems and talk to either Dan or Heidi. They will be able to give you a straight answer. They are located in downtown Vancouver.

 

[partsed]

I'm new to the Vancouver area and new to PNW in general. In my old state, Assachusetts, basically all NFA items were illegal...So I've set up a trust already, and am doing the paperwork for an SBR, but I have a question...who do I put down as the CLEO? Vancouver PD? or the Sheriff dept.? Also, where do I go to get fingerprinted?

Assachusetts-that is funnier than Commifornia!!!

 

[etrain16]

Well, after waiting for a few weeks, I finally was able to submit my trust application to @SportingSys this week. I'd been checking for several weeks, but they had stopped taking them for a while due to a backlog of paperwork. Now the wait for the appointment, but I'm just glad I'm finally in the queue.

 

[11Charlie]

I'm going in tomorrow for my form 4 and finger printing and then the wait starts!

 

[etrain16]

I'm going in tomorrow for my form 4 and finger printing and then the wait starts!

It begins!

 

[Lazyfaire]

I thought I would let everyone know how impressed I am with the gun trust that Sporting Systems in Vancouver has. If any of you don't have a trust set up I highly suggest that you take the time to check them out.

The Trust is $200 dollars and you go home with everything that you need. Everything is laid out very clean in a three ring binder. As the Trust trustee you are the only one to get finger printed for any NFA item that is put into the trust. You don't have to go through all the hassle's to get everyone printed.

You can add or remove any gun from the trust at any time on your own. Helps you track your pistols, long guns, ammo and NFA items. This is by far the best Trust that I found for the money. I love the fact that they are a local company and not a big chain store or corporation. They care about you and your experience and the staff is hands down the most friendly I have come across.

If you guys have any questions let me know I will do my best to answer them. I know that @etrain16 is going to get his trust set up there very soon as well.

Note the following is using my 3 yr old trust and purchasing 2 new cans.
I was informed today that every Trustee on the Trust had to now submit fingerprints and photos for a Form 4. I too had been told before that because the trust owned the item that it wasn't necessary. $29 for 2 sets of prints (WCSO) and $30 for 4 photos (Walgreens) later, they also need 3 copies of my Trust for every NFA item (6!). GRRR

 

[Lazyfaire]

I was looking at a specific scenario. Manufacture, import and transfers of ARs are illegal. ARs are not illegal to own in Oregon if you possessed one already when the ban took effect. They cannot be transferred to anyone, ever. And when you die they are surrendered to the government. This is a VERY likely scenario that I have seen suggested from credible sources. It would seem that if the trust was the owner in this scenario, since it would never die, the guns would remain in the trust, even if one of the trust members dies. Correct?

If the owner dies with/out successor trustees the trust is dead-ended. SBRs and suppressors would then be open to confiscation.

 

[Lazyfaire]

I'm going to have to look into that. My FFL said if I was using a trust, I had to provide paperwork for everyone in the trust when I buy and NFA item, each time I buy one. I checked an online store and they said the same thing - photos, fingerprints and form for every person in the trust.

You are correct. This line tho is fairly recent. They must have been running low on paperwork.

 

[etrain16]

Note the following is using my 3 yr old trust and purchasing 2 new cans.
I was informed today that every Trustee on the Trust had to now submit fingerprints and photos for a Form 4. I too had been told before that because the trust owned the item that it wasn't necessary. $29 for 2 sets of prints (WCSO) and $30 for 4 photos (Walgreens) later, they also need 3 copies of my Trust for every NFA item (6!). GRRR

I am waiting on my trust from SS right now - just got the paperwork in last week. I spoke to them directly about this myself, and they do sell plenty of suppressors in their shop. They have said very clearly that the way their particular trust is set up by the attorney that drafted it, is that only the primary trustee has to be fingerprinted and photographed. If they're wrong, then they've been submitting all their paperwork incorrectly under their trusts - but considering they've been doing this for a while, I would expect they would have heard back by now if it were a problem. When I go in to finally get my trust, I was planning on talking with them about this in more detail and get some answers as to why no one else is required to do so.

BTW, my local FFL, where I'll be getting my first suppressors, has added the ability to do digital fingerprints and digital photos right there in his shop - no charge. So some nice savings there.

 

[Lazyfaire]

I am waiting on my trust from SS right now - just got the paperwork in last week. I spoke to them directly about this myself, and they do sell plenty of suppressors in their shop. They have said very clearly that the way their particular trust is set up by the attorney that drafted it, is that only the primary trustee has to be fingerprinted and photographed. If they're wrong, then they've been submitting all their paperwork incorrectly under their trusts - but considering they've been doing this for a while, I would expect they would have heard back by now if it were a problem. When I go in to finally get my trust, I was planning on talking with them about this in more detail and get some answers as to why no one else is required to do so.

BTW, my local FFL, where I'll be getting my first suppressors, has added the ability to do digital fingerprints and digital photos right there in his shop - no charge. So some nice savings there.

I certainly would rather not do anything unnecessary, as if most of this isn't anyway), so I hope you are correct. I like your way better!

 

[jbett98]

FINAL Rule 41F – Background Checks for Responsible Persons – Effective July 13 2016

The final rule affects the NFA regulations by:

• defining the term "responsible person," as used in reference to a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation;
• requiring responsible persons of such trusts or legal entities to complete ATF form 5320.23, National Firearms Act Responsible Person Questionnaire and to submit photographs and fingerprints when the trust or legal entity files an application to make an NFA firearm or is listed as the transferee on an application to transfer an NFA firearm;
• requiring that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm, and the specified form for responsible persons (5320.23), be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the applicant/transferee or responsible person resides; and
• eliminating the requirement for certification signed by the CLEO.
• In addition, the final rule adds a new section to ATF's regulations to address the possession and transfer of firearms registered to a decedent.
  
  

In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation, any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and polices of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.

In the case of a TRUST, those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust.



Examples of who may be considered a responsible person of a trust or legal entity include:

• Settlors/Grantors
• Trustees
• Partners
• Members
• Officers
• Board members
• Owners
• Beneficiaries – if said beneficiary has the capability to exercise any of the powers or authorities enumerated above.

If you are:

• applying as a trust or legal entity to make and register an NFA firearm on a Form 1, or
• receiving an NFA firearm in the name of a trust or other legal entity as the transferee on a Form 4, or Form 5,

the following information is applicable to your applications:

• all responsible persons named in the trust or legal entity are required to undergo a background check.
• all responsible persons must complete the Form 5320.23 with photo attached and provide two FD-258 fingerprint cards in order to initiate the required background check. Fingerprint cards may be ordered from the ATF Distribution Center through the online Distribution Center Order Form, or by calling (703) 870-7526 or (703) 870-7528.
• Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) certification has been replaced with CLEO notification. The applicant on the Form 1 and the transferee on the Forms 4 and 5 shall forward a completed copy of the application to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the applicant or transferee is located. In addition, all responsible persons must also submit a completed copy of Form 5320.23, to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the responsible person resides.
• after July 12, 2016, all applications to make or transfer NFA firearms must be submitted on the new Form 1, Form 4 or Form 5 and a Form 5320.23 must be completed by each responsible person of a trust or legal entity.
• after July 12, 2016, CLEO certification is no longer required but applicants must send a copy of the application to make or transfer NFA firearms to their chief law enforcement officer notifying them of the application.
• all applications post marked prior to the effective date of July 13, 2016 will be processed according to the current regulations.
• all applications post marked on or after the effective date of July 13, 2016 will be processed according to the new regulations set forth by 41F.

 

[Lazyfaire]

FINAL Rule 41F – Background Checks for Responsible Persons – Effective July 13 2016

The final rule affects the NFA regulations by:

• defining the term "responsible person," as used in reference to a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation;
• requiring responsible persons of such trusts or legal entities to complete ATF form 5320.23, National Firearms Act Responsible Person Questionnaire and to submit photographs and fingerprints when the trust or legal entity files an application to make an NFA firearm or is listed as the transferee on an application to transfer an NFA firearm;
• requiring that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm, and the specified form for responsible persons (5320.23), be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the applicant/transferee or responsible person resides; and
• eliminating the requirement for certification signed by the CLEO.
• In addition, the final rule adds a new section to ATF's regulations to address the possession and transfer of firearms registered to a decedent.
  

In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation, any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and polices of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.

In the case of a TRUST, those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust.



Examples of who may be considered a responsible person of a trust or legal entity include:

• Settlors/Grantors
• Trustees
• Partners
• Members
• Officers
• Board members
• Owners
• Beneficiaries – if said beneficiary has the capability to exercise any of the powers or authorities enumerated above.

If you are:

• applying as a trust or legal entity to make and register an NFA firearm on a Form 1, or
• receiving an NFA firearm in the name of a trust or other legal entity as the transferee on a Form 4, or Form 5,

the following information is applicable to your applications:

• all responsible persons named in the trust or legal entity are required to undergo a background check.
• all responsible persons must complete the Form 5320.23 with photo attached and provide two FD-258 fingerprint cards in order to initiate the required background check. Fingerprint cards may be ordered from the ATF Distribution Center through the online Distribution Center Order Form, or by calling (703) 870-7526 or (703) 870-7528.
• Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) certification has been replaced with CLEO notification. The applicant on the Form 1 and the transferee on the Forms 4 and 5 shall forward a completed copy of the application to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the applicant or transferee is located. In addition, all responsible persons must also submit a completed copy of Form 5320.23, to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the responsible person resides.
• after July 12, 2016, all applications to make or transfer NFA firearms must be submitted on the new Form 1, Form 4 or Form 5 and a Form 5320.23 must be completed by each responsible person of a trust or legal entity.
• after July 12, 2016, CLEO certification is no longer required but applicants must send a copy of the application to make or transfer NFA firearms to their chief law enforcement officer notifying them of the application.
• all applications post marked prior to the effective date of July 13, 2016 will be processed according to the current regulations.
• all applications post marked on or after the effective date of July 13, 2016 will be processed according to the new regulations set forth by 41F.

Thank you

 

[etrain16]

FINAL Rule 41F – Background Checks for Responsible Persons – Effective July 13 2016

The final rule affects the NFA regulations by:

• defining the term "responsible person," as used in reference to a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation;
• requiring responsible persons of such trusts or legal entities to complete ATF form 5320.23, National Firearms Act Responsible Person Questionnaire and to submit photographs and fingerprints when the trust or legal entity files an application to make an NFA firearm or is listed as the transferee on an application to transfer an NFA firearm;
• requiring that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm, and the specified form for responsible persons (5320.23), be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the applicant/transferee or responsible person resides; and
• eliminating the requirement for certification signed by the CLEO.
• In addition, the final rule adds a new section to ATF's regulations to address the possession and transfer of firearms registered to a decedent.
  

In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation, any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and polices of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.

In the case of a TRUST, those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust.



Examples of who may be considered a responsible person of a trust or legal entity include:

• Settlors/Grantors
• Trustees
• Partners
• Members
• Officers
• Board members
• Owners
• Beneficiaries – if said beneficiary has the capability to exercise any of the powers or authorities enumerated above.

If you are:

• applying as a trust or legal entity to make and register an NFA firearm on a Form 1, or
• receiving an NFA firearm in the name of a trust or other legal entity as the transferee on a Form 4, or Form 5,

the following information is applicable to your applications:

• all responsible persons named in the trust or legal entity are required to undergo a background check.
• all responsible persons must complete the Form 5320.23 with photo attached and provide two FD-258 fingerprint cards in order to initiate the required background check. Fingerprint cards may be ordered from the ATF Distribution Center through the online Distribution Center Order Form, or by calling (703) 870-7526 or (703) 870-7528.
• Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) certification has been replaced with CLEO notification. The applicant on the Form 1 and the transferee on the Forms 4 and 5 shall forward a completed copy of the application to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the applicant or transferee is located. In addition, all responsible persons must also submit a completed copy of Form 5320.23, to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the responsible person resides.
• after July 12, 2016, all applications to make or transfer NFA firearms must be submitted on the new Form 1, Form 4 or Form 5 and a Form 5320.23 must be completed by each responsible person of a trust or legal entity.
• after July 12, 2016, CLEO certification is no longer required but applicants must send a copy of the application to make or transfer NFA firearms to their chief law enforcement officer notifying them of the application.
• all applications post marked prior to the effective date of July 13, 2016 will be processed according to the current regulations.
• all applications post marked on or after the effective date of July 13, 2016 will be processed according to the new regulations set forth by 41F.

When I go in to get my trust, I'm going to bring a copy of this and ask them about it. They made it quite clear that only the named trustee had to do the BGC, etc., based on their particular trust. It will be interesting to see what their response is to this.

 

[Lazyfaire]

When I go in to get my trust, I'm going to bring a copy of this and ask them about it. They made it quite clear that only the named trustee had to do the BGC, etc., based on their particular trust. It will be interesting to see what their response is to this.

Let us all know what they say

 

[Sporting Systems]

500 trusts approved by ATF.

If you name trustees in the body trust, they are responsible parties under the body of the trust and have to be printed, photographed, and sign for each Form 1 or 4 application. This is cumbersome and time consuming. We have existing trusts where the whole family comes down for a sign, pic and print party.

Your named successor grantors, so if the original grantor dies, the trust automatically transfers to the named successor. Basic succession planning, but the successor grantor is not a responsible party until such time that you die, and then, as long as they are legally able to possess the inventory of the trust, they are only then the responsible party. Trustees added by addendum, after the formation of the trust are specifically not listed as responsible and controlling parties of the trust assets. Trustees can be added or removed at any time, but cannot control trust assets.

NFA only requires one copy of the trust with each application, or multiple applications made at the same time. I'm submitting 3 suppressors for one client today, with that I'll sub (2) photos, (2) fingerprint cards and (1) trust copy. You do not need to send multiple trust copies, the ONLY exception to that is if you submit a form 1 AND form 4 TOGETHER. Those are divided and processed separately at the NFA branch, generally they apply all the pics, prints, and trust copy to the form 1, leaving the Form 4 naked, then they'll send you or me a correction notice. (Little known fact...they scan these documents, if they have a form 1 approved or in process, the people requesting the pics and prints can actually look up the trust name, and pull the print cards and pics from the other file).

Most noteworthy thing to mention here. The people at the ATF branch are really nice, but make a lot of mistakes. The mail service at the Atlanta receiving deport AND at the Martinsburg WV lose a healthy amount of documents. The NFA branch misfiles even more. They will ask for things they already have. They will ask you to change data that is hard fact. Case in points, from this week ALREADY:

#1) My favorite. I get a couple a week on this one. "Our data indicates the suppressor is 7.75" in length, not 7.09". My response, "As you can see from then attached photo, the suppressor is actually 7.09" as indicated by the ruler in the photo. I tried to stretch it to 7.75 but these things are pretty tough. I've included a corrected form and the original, you decide whether your data or the ruler is correct and discard the other document". So I started sending them in as 7.75" after a couple dozen times, I'll play their game. Now I get corrections back that the suppressor is 7.09". How do you win? The best one, same client bought 3 identical cans, 2 approved at 7.09" and one returned for correction to be 7.75. Seriously, its laughable most of the time.

#2) They request page 2 of Form 4 be corrected, so I send it to them. They reply and say no, they need the RPQ document. We've sent them the RPQ already. Why did you send me page 2 of the form 4 if you wanted the RPQ? They request a copy of the Responsible Party document to be completed. OK, I comply and send it again. They've told the client once that his forms have been approved, he calls and is asking to pick up...I tell him that we call clients on approvals the same day, as soon as we have them, we call you.

#3) We get a correction notice, pics and prints are missing. This was a form 1 and form 4 application where we supplied multiples for different form types. So we send another set to them, 4 weeks ago. They call my client Monday (not me, but the client) and tell him that they are going to deny his application because the information is missing...he panics. My phone blows up. I call and email the examiner. She calls back Tuesday, say his forms are approved. Yeah, done. Right? Nope. Her assistant calls back Wednesday and says we need pics and prints still, the forms aren't approved. I inform her that we've supplied 3 sets, isn't that enough? How many times do you need to lose these documents, but ok...sure. I ask her, hey, you approved his form 1's on November...can you look that up? "Of course, yeah,. same trust name?" She looks it up, his prints and pics were scanned in 3 times, to his form 1, they never routed them into his form 4 folder. OK, so were good right? "Yes sir, we're all good to go.". Whew, had enough yet? I get a call back an hour later, we need his pic still. OK, can I email it? "yes sir". OK, I open his trust file, email his photo to her and were done. This morning, I called and they told me unequivocally, the suppressor stamps are now APPROVED. I wonder what tomorrow will bring.

#4) Client calls. Says she's waiting on her trust for 9 months.
me: Um, no we did your trust 9 months ago, you're waiting on a stamp.
her: "No, I got a letter saying I have 30 days to fix something."
me: OK, what does the letter say?
her: "It says I have 30 days to fix something, you need to fix this now".
me: Ma'am, I cant fix it if I don't know what it is I'm supposed to fix. What am I supposed to fix? Can you send me a picture of the letter or read it to me?
her: "You need to shut up and listen it needs to be fixed in 30 days".
me: OK, Ma'am, I remember your situation now. We did your trust and your husband is transferring his SBR into the trust name. He is the transferor and the Transforee. You completed that form and submitted it to ATF, not us. We did help you with it though.
her: "Stop talking and fix this now. They lost the documents and want me to refile. They have the wrong address on them"
me: OK, they lost the documents and told you that they lost the documents and want you to refile it. I got it. You'll need to send them a new form 4, I'll be happy to complete that form for you and mail it to you for signature, what is the address I should use?
her: "No, you need to send it to them. You need to call them and work this out."
me: Well, they wont talk to me because I'm neither the transferor or transferee. I can call, but they wont share that info with me. But heck I'll do it anyways,
her: "thank you, that's all I'm asking."
Me: OK, I'll call you back shortly.
Me: Ma'am I spoke with ATF, they wont share that info with me, they'll only do it with your husband. But I want to help, so can you send me any information you have from ATF.
her: "click".

OK...that went well. ATF had the wrong mailing address for the people. They mailed a correction notice with the original form 4 application to the old address on the original form 4, they didn't receive that one. They mailed another correction document to their current address, they received that one, but the original forms are now missing.

Moral to the story?: NFA branch is full of nice people. Many are contractors and job security is established by not moving the needle. They must have motivational signs around the building "Be pleasant, but don't be fast". "Be mostly accurate, yet incomplete". You will get different answers, different days.