Gun and NFA Trust / Sporting Systems Vancouver

[IOM]

Hmm, based on what I've just read, now, nore then ever looks like I'll have to make a trip down to Vancouver and get one of those Trusts done...

Especially in todays climate of uncertainty...

The distance from Eugene to Vancouver is about the same from my location, just the opposite direction..

Some great information SKrueger, Kudos...

 

[IOM]

I used "Gun Trust Guru" online service last night for only $99.95 and it only took me 15 minutes.
Printed it out and it's ready for my HK MP5 SBR clone form 1.

But did you get the Three Ring Binder...???

 

[etrain16]

No you are the only one that gets finger printed and photo graphed for a NFA item. It doesn't matter who is in your trust. All laws have to be followed so if you were to say let me use your suppressor then you would have to put me into your trust. There is paper work in the binder that I got to fill out and sign for both parties involved to do something like that.

I'm going to have to look into that. My FFL said if I was using a trust, I had to provide paperwork for everyone in the trust when I buy and NFA item, each time I buy one. I checked an online store and they said the same thing - photos, fingerprints and form for every person in the trust.

 

[11Charlie]

I'm going to have to look into that. My FFL said if I was using a trust, I had to provide paperwork for everyone in the trust when I buy and NFA item, each time I buy one. I checked an online store and they said the same thing - photos, fingerprints and form for every person in the trust.

They will have to have a copy of the trust and the tax stamp with them but they don't need to be fingerprinted was my understanding. I can reach out to Heidi and ask but I'm 99% positive.

 

[etrain16]

They will have to have a copy of the trust and the tax stamp with them but they don't need to be fingerprinted was my understanding. I can reach out to Heidi and ask but I'm 99% positive.

Okay, I went back to the email from my FFL, and here is what he actually said he needs regarding other trustees at the time he files the Form 4:

If to a trust, I need the name and address of the trust.

I will also need the first, middle, and last names, addresses and phone numbers of all trustees, as well as answers to the questions below for all trustees.

If you are registering it to you as an individual, I just need your name and address. I will also need your answers to the questions below:

• Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year?
• Have you ever been convicted in any court for a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?
• Are you a fugitive from justice?
• Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.
• Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
• Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
• Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner?
• Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?
• Country of Citizenship
• Are you an alien Illegally or unlawfully in the United States?
• Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?
  • 1. Are you an alien who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa?
  • 2. If "yes", do you fall within any of the exceptions stated in the instructions? Attach the documentation to the application
• If you are an alien. record your U.S.-Issued Alien or Admission number (AR#, USCIS#, or 194#):

However, when I looked up an suppressor purchase at one online site - Grab A Gun, they say they need:

1. Set up your trust or make a copy of your existing trust
2. Purchase your suppressor online at grabagun.com
3. Obtain 2 Passport Photos, for every responsible person on the trust
4. Fill out 2 copies of fingerprint cards (FBI form FD-258), for every responsible person on the trust
5. Fill out Responsible Person Questionnaire (ATF Form 5320.23), for every responsible person on the trust
6. Fill out your Form 4 and Mail in your $200 payment to ATF
7. Mail in copy of your Form 4 and all Responsible Person Questionnaires (ATF Form 5320.23) to your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO)
8. Sit back and relax because you are done!

You'll see that items #3 and #4 require photos and fingerprint cards for every "responsible" person on the trust in addition to the questionnaires in #5. Question is, is anyone on the trust a 'responsible' person, or just the named trustee, and not the people the trustee ads to the trust?

I wish it didn't have to be confusing...

 

[kott0n]

This is exactly where I stopped when I looked.

For me I've never filled out a 4473 and I'm not really interested in having what gun I own clearly spelled out waiting for some politician to setup search algorithms.

It's not that I can't own guns, I pass a BGC every 4 years, it's simply I'm not wanting to be in a database.

So if let's say anyone other than myself was the trustee, any new firearm non-nfa added to the trust only has the named trustee complete the 4473?

I guess if the 4473 has the name of the trust they could easily see who is on the trust when push came to shove.

 

[etrain16]

This is exactly where I stopped when I looked.

For me I've never filled out a 4473 and I'm not really interested in having what gun I own clearly spelled out waiting for some politician to setup search algorithms.

It's not that I can't own guns, I pass a BGC every 4 years, it's simply I'm not wanting to be in a database.

So if let's say anyone other than myself was the trustee, any new firearm non-nfa added to the trust only has the named trustee complete the 4473?

I guess if the 4473 has the name of the trust they could easily see who is on the trust when push came to shove.

As I understand it, for non-NFA items, no one is notified when the trustee ads items to the trust (NFA items do require the trust name to be used on the Form 4). But with the trust Skrueger is talking about, you have a binder that you manage. You add guns to the trust and remove guns from the trust on your own, using the paperwork in the binder - no need to go through an attorney or anyone else. Buy a new gun, then add it to the trust after. From what I can see, only the NFA items would be visible to the government. The rest is just managed by you - any new non-NFA purchase can be done outside of the trust and you can add it yourself later.

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

 

[11Charlie]

As I understand it, for non-NFA items, no one is notified when the trustee ads items to the trust (NFA items do require the trust name to be used on the Form 4). But with the trust Skrueger is talking about, you have a binder that you manage. You add guns to the trust and remove guns from the trust on your own, using the paperwork in the binder - no need to go through an attorney or anyone else. Buy a new gun, then add it to the trust after. From what I can see, only the NFA items would be visible to the government. The rest is just managed by you - any new non-NFA purchase can be done outside of the trust and you can add it yourself later.

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

You are absolutely correct. As for the other I am going to call tomorrow and confirm what I am telling you all. I want to say I am correct and that this trust does not need everyone finger printed but before I bet my life on it I am going to confirm.

 

[kott0n]

Thank you guys! I've been trying to get clarification on this for a while.

 

[etrain16]

Thank you guys! I've been trying to get clarification on this for a while.

Since you're in Vancouver, you might want to swing by and talk with Sporting Systems yourself. Sounds like they really know their stuff. I'm hoping to get up to see them in the next week or two.

 

[11Charlie]

I emailed Heidi and told her I started this thread. She was excited because they do not advertise so word of mouth is how they get their business. Maybe I can get one of them to log on and speak to us directly.

 

[kott0n]

I didn't even know about Sporting Systems or their services so this is a +1 from me so far, I like what I'm hearing.

Ill definitely stop in and see them.

 

[DirectDrive]

I thought that there was a type of Trust that didn't require sign-off by local LE ?
Sounds like this one requires it.

 

[11Charlie]

I thought that there was a type of Trust that didn't require sign-off by local LE ?
Sounds like this one requires it.

Maybe I'm tired and the brain is not functioning but was is LE?

 

[etrain16]

Maybe I'm tired and the brain is not functioning but was is LE?

I think he's saying there is a need to have a local law enforcement official sign off on the trust - but you've mentioned nothing about that being a requirement.

 

[11Charlie]

I think he's saying there is a need to have a local law enforcement official sign off on the trust - but you've mentioned nothing about that being a requirement.

No only people that signed was me and the notary.

 

[jbett98]

Obama changed things with gun trusts. You no longer need the top cop to sign off on your form 1 or 4 application, you just need to send the top cop in your area a Responsible Person form(s) when sending in application to the ATF'

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...pdf/download&usg=AOvVaw1pplW_z0NPNrDR7qnb2P0F

 

[DirectDrive]

I think he's saying there is a need to have a local law enforcement official sign off on the trust - but you've mentioned nothing about that being a requirement.

Yes, there was a line item above ^^^
#7
What is that ?

 

[etrain16]

Yes, there was a line item above ^^^
#7
What is that ?

That was what I posted right from the Grab A Gun website. My local FFL has mentioned nothing about that and we're waiting to see what Sporting Systems says about it. It gets confusing because the answers seem to be inconsistent, depending on who you get them from.

 

[etrain16]

Obama changed things with gun trusts. You no longer need the top cop to sign off on your form 1 or 4 application, you just need to send the top cop in your area a Responsible Person form(s) when sending in application to the ATF'

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_iJem6czZAhVmoFkKHVxaBNEQFghOMAQ&url=https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/general41fquestionsandanswersupdated-6-28-16pdf/download&usg=AOvVaw1pplW_z0NPNrDR7qnb2P0F

Good link to keep on hand. So, according to that, the CLEO gets both a copy of the Form 4 and the responsible person form(s). Next question then, is who sends them? Is that the responsibility of the FFL, or the person buying the NFA item? For example, when I did my Class 03 FFL application, and renewal, it was my job to send them to my CLEO. Is that the same when I'm making an NFA purchase?