Gun and NFA Trust / Sporting Systems Vancouver

[11Charlie]

I paid an extra seven dollars so sporting systems would take care of all the paper work. Thought that was way cool because then I didn't need to worry about it.

 

[jbett98]

You don't need a CLEO's sign off anymore, but they will be informed of what, who and where the Form 1 or form 4 NFA item will be located and they are directed by the ATF to look into your personal background history to see if you have anything that would disqualify you, or anyone named in the trust from receiving a tax stamp.


Responsible Person
In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability company (LLC)), or corporation, any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust or entity to receive, possess or ship, transport, deliver, transfer or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.
In the case of a trust, those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust includes any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of the trust.
Examples of who may be considered a responsible person include settlors/grantors, trustees, partners, members, officers, directors, board members or owners.
An example of who may be excluded from this definition of responsible person is the beneficiary of a trust, if the beneficiary does not have the capability to exercise the enumerated powers or authorities.

 

[etrain16]

You don't need a CLEO's sign off anymore, but they will be informed of what, who and where the Form 1 or form 4 NFA item will be located and they are directed by the ATF to look into your personal background history to see if you have anything that would disqualify you, or anyone named in the trust from receiving a tax stamp.


Responsible Person
In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability company (LLC)), or corporation, any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust or entity to receive, possess or ship, transport, deliver, transfer or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.
In the case of a trust, those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust includes any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of the trust.
Examples of who may be considered a responsible person include settlors/grantors, trustees, partners, members, officers, directors, board members or owners.
An example of who may be excluded from this definition of responsible person is the beneficiary of a trust, if the beneficiary does not have the capability to exercise the enumerated powers or authorities.

Okay, so that brings up another question. Say I'm originally the only person on the trust, the original trustee. I go out and purchase an NFA item, a suppressor, I fill out the paperwork, submit the tax stamp and wait. Later I get the suppressor and note it in the trust. A month later, I add someone to the trust. Now, the trust already owns the suppressor, what about the newly added trustee? From what I understand no additional background check or tax stamp is needed. However, must the CLEO be notified that a new trustee has been added to the trust? I don't see the answer in that link, so I'm just curious about that.

 

[jbett98]

Any person whom you appointed as an "Additional Co-Trustee" is considered a "Responsible Person".
Beneficiaries and Successor Trustee's are not considered a "Responsible Person".

This advise is taken out of my NFA Trust checklist guidelines.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Obama changed things with gun trusts. You no longer need the top cop to sign off on your form 1 or 4 application, you just need to send the top cop in your area a Responsible Person form(s) when sending in application to the ATF'

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_iJem6czZAhVmoFkKHVxaBNEQFghOMAQ&url=https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/general41fquestionsandanswersupdated-6-28-16pdf/download&usg=AOvVaw1pplW_z0NPNrDR7qnb2P0F

Yes, this is what I found out.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I used "Gun Trust Guru" online service last night for only $99.95 and it only took me 15 minutes.
Printed it out and it's ready for my HK MP5 SBR clone form 1.

I did the same, since Vancouver is a long way from here. The primary beneficiary is my 3 yo daughter, and my wife and I are co-trustees. I transferred my ARs to the trust. If it turns out there's a ban on ARs and they are grandfathered only for the life of the present owner (a popular scenario), then we are good to go until my 3 yo is 21 and a trustee judges that she's mature enough to own them. Now I'm all set up to get NFA equipment too.

In Oregon, immediate family is exempt from BGC requirements for non-NFA firearms, so BGCs should not be a problem.

 

[11Charlie]

I have more info for you guys. I will post when I get home tonight with it.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

As I understand it, for non-NFA items, no one is notified when the trustee ads items to the trust (NFA items do require the trust name to be used on the Form 4). But with the trust Skrueger is talking about, you have a binder that you manage. You add guns to the trust and remove guns from the trust on your own, using the paperwork in the binder - no need to go through an attorney or anyone else. Buy a new gun, then add it to the trust after. From what I can see, only the NFA items would be visible to the government. The rest is just managed by you - any new non-NFA purchase can be done outside of the trust and you can add it yourself later.

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

My understanding, after reading all the documentation that came with my trust last night, is that only Trustees are Responsible Persons. Nobody else has control of the firearms. Nobody else signs a paper accepting their role in the Trust (aside from the Settlor). Any current Trustee can add a non-NFA firearm to the Trust with the Transfer form, which then must be notarized. But no government official or gun shop employee ever sees your complete inventory.

 

[11Charlie]

So I had the opportunity to confirm some things. Do you guys want the long version or the short?

 

[kott0n]

The long please!

 

[etrain16]

My understanding, after reading all the documentation that came with my trust last night, is that only Trustees are Responsible Persons. Nobody else has control of the firearms. Nobody else signs a paper accepting their role in the Trust (aside from the Settlor). Any current Trustee can add a non-NFA firearm to the Trust with the Transfer form, which then must be notarized. But no government official or gun shop employee ever sees your complete inventory.

I just spoke with @SKrueger a little while ago, he had some more conversation with the folks at Sporting Systems. Sounds like the individual trust and how it's written has an impact on some of that. Keep an eye out for his clarification post.

 

[brandonryan]

here is a modified version of the silencershop.com $129 trust. * <broken link removed>

Free for you guys
<broken link removed> Again like i tell all my friends who have used it in the past few years.
Im not a lawyer so if you are worried about it have it checked. My lawyer said its good to go!

I have 11 suppressors 8 SBR's and 2 Short barreled shot guns on the trust. zero issues

 

[11Charlie]

So here is the long and short of the trust that Sporting system has guys. There are different style of trusts. This one happens to be a gun trust. Yes you can own and have all your guns in it along with your NFA items. (SBR's, suppressors and so on) The trust at silencerco is like 12 pages if I am not mistaken. This trust is 56 pages and is set up totally different.

In this trust you personally are the grantor, trustee etc. You are everything with beneficiaries of the trust so that the trust will continue on. So when I purchase my suppressor I am the only one that gets finger printed. The beneficiaries still have the right to use anything in the trust legally by law. If it is a NFA item then there is paperwork that needs to be filled out for the time frame that they will be using it with an end date. This must be filled out even if it is for the day. I know that @etrain16 had questions that I tried to answer to the best of my abilities. I love how this trust is laid out. There is so much to it that protects you and makes things easier than your standard simple trusts that you find everywhere else.

I do know that Dan and Heidi spent a lot of money to get this trust set up this way to make things easier for all of us. I would suggest that if anyone has specific questions to reach out to Heidi and talk to her about the specifics. I firmly believe that you will not be disappointed.

Hope this helps everyone.

 

[jbett98]

Is the temporary form you speak of called a Grantor of Use?

 

[11Charlie]

Is the temporary form you speak of called a Grantor of Use?

Trustee appointment & grant of use

 

[Sporting Systems]

Would there be an advantage to this with non-NFA items? I'm thinking what if they ban ARs, but grandfather them to their current owners and prohibit any kind of transfers? Like, when you die it gets turned in for destruction. Seems to me that if it was in a trust, the trust would never die and the AR could be used/possessed by any trustee. Is that the kind of thing we're talking about? I'd go for it in a split second if that's the case.

Exactly. The individual doesn't not own, the trust does. The successor grantor or beneficiaries then control the trust, and it lives on in perpetuity.

 

[Sporting Systems]

Nope @etrain16 lives in Oregon and is going to use them. As for the long distance I am not sure. I would call and talk to Heidi or Dan they are the owners. I am sure that they could email you the application and you could pay for it with a credit card over the phone. As for signing the trust and getting it set up I am guessing that you would need to be face to face so Heidi can notorize everything to make it legal.

Yes, we can email the trust ap to you and take payment over the phone. The notarization is scheduled at the shop, at which time, if using this for NFA items, we take your fingerprints on our FBI approved scanner, take your pics...and for three years those are good for NFA submissions. We do free NFA transfers for Oregon residents of items purchased in store and there is no sales tax for the trust or goodies purchased. One stop shop with 200 suppressor and SBRs in stock. Want a trust and can, with one stop...we do all of it for you, in house. Clean and simple.

 

[Sporting Systems]

Any way to do business with them long distance? I'm in Eugene. It's not a short drive, and would being an Oregon resident make for complications?

Our trust is tuned for Oregon, Washington, or Bi State for those who are residentially confused.

 

[Sporting Systems]

Yes that is true. In my case my wife is the first in line then my daughter and so on. But if Washington makes AR's illegal then I can fill out a addendum and drive them to Arizona in my daughters care and still be legal. The beauty of this all is I can do it myself I don't need to go in and have an attorney do these things for me.

If it is just you and one other person and you both live in Oregon then you can appoint someone who lives in Washington to be a holder of certain items if they become illegal in Oregon. With out changing who would inherit your guns if something god for bid happened to you.

Hope that makes sense.

Bingo, your understanding of the benefits is spot on. Excellent explanations. We're doing a video on this next week, we'll share it in here once it's complete. It's been a little busy lately, our creative time has been compromised a tad.

 

[Sporting Systems]

I thought that there was a type of Trust that didn't require sign-off by local LE ?
Sounds like this one requires it.

LE approval went away when 41P was implements in July 2016. Now it's LE notification only.

Okay, so that brings up another question. Say I'm originally the only person on the trust, the original trustee. I go out and purchase an NFA item, a suppressor, I fill out the paperwork, submit the tax stamp and wait. Later I get the suppressor and note it in the trust. A month later, I add someone to the trust. Now, the trust already owns the suppressor, what about the newly added trustee? From what I understand no additional background check or tax stamp is needed. However, must the CLEO be notified that a new trustee has been added to the trust? I don't see the answer in that link, so I'm just curious about that.

No additional notification is required. FYI. Clark County Sheriffis literally takes these forms from us, and then shreds them. They have no mandate to monitor or log them and said they're required to destroy them within 30 days. When we first started sending them, we thu had no idea what to do with them...nobody told them about the Chief LEO notification, several minor arguements ensured.