Glovebox gun: Being a responsible gun owner

[PlayboyPenguin]

Why not?

Because items secured inside a vehicle and not physically on the person of the passenger are not legally in their possession unless they are the registered owner of the vehicle.

 

[mattg521]

This thread is great food for thought.
Good post PBP.

 

[MountainBear]

NANO VAULT 300 - HANDGUN SAFES

Seems like a reasonable solution to the issue. Cable tied to the driver's side seat frame...

 

[Trlsmn]

Because items secured inside a vehicle and not physically on the person of the passenger are not legally in their possession unless they are the registered owner of the vehicle.

This is the way I understand it too but I have to say that I just looked up the Oregon firearm statutes and I don't see any wording that says this is the case.

The law relies on the firearm being locked into the glovebox of a vehicle that has no outside storage, if the firearm is in the vehicle in an unlocked glove box there seems to be no protection for the passenger other than the legitimate owners honor to claim it is his, at least from what I can find in the statutes.

166.250 Unlawful possession of firearms. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260, 166.270, 166.274, 166.291, 166.292 or 166.410 to 166.470, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:

(a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;

(b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or

(c) Possesses a firearm and:

(A) Is under 18 years of age;

(B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470; and

(ii) Was discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court within four years prior to being charged under this section;

(C) Has been convicted of a felony;

(D) Was committed to the Oregon Health Authority under ORS 426.130;

(E) Was found to be mentally ill and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness; or

(F) Has been found guilty except for insanity under ORS 161.295 of a felony.

(2) This section does not prohibit:

(a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:

(A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minor's parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minor's parent or guardian; or

(B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or

(b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the person's place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the person's place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, "residence" includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.

(3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

(4)(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle.

(b) If a vehicle has no storage location that is outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:

(A) The handgun is stored in a closed and locked glove compartment, center console or other container; and

(B) The key is not inserted into the lock, if the glove compartment, center console or other container unlocks with a key.

(5) Unlawful possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor. [Amended by 1979 c.779 §4; 1985 c.543 §3; 1989 c.839 §13; 1993 c.732 §1; 1993 c.735 §12; 1999 c.1040 §1; 2001 c.666 §§33,45; 2003 c.614 §8; 2009 c.499 §1; 2009 c.595 §112]







166.260 Persons not affected by ORS 166.250. (1) ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect:

(a) Sheriffs, constables, marshals, parole and probation officers, police officers, whether active or honorably retired, or other duly appointed peace officers.

(b) Any person summoned by any such officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while said person so summoned is actually engaged in assisting the officer.

(c) The possession or transportation by any merchant of unloaded firearms as merchandise.

(d) Active or reserve members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard or Marine Corps of the United States, or of the National Guard, when on duty.

(e) Organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive weapons described in ORS 166.250 from the United States, or from this state.

(f) Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or the members thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.

(g) A corrections officer while transporting or accompanying an individual convicted of or arrested for an offense and confined in a place of incarceration or detention while outside the confines of the place of incarceration or detention.

(h) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.

(2) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating ORS 166.250 (1)(c)(C) that the person has been granted relief from the disability under ORS 166.274.

(3) Except for persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm under ORS 166.250 (1)(c) or 166.270, ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect:

(a) Members of any club or organization, for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets upon the established target ranges, whether public or private, while such members are using any of the firearms referred to in ORS 166.250 upon such target ranges, or while going to and from such ranges.

(b) Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or returning from a hunting or fishing expedition.

(4) The exceptions listed in subsection (1)(b) to (h) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating ORS 166.250. [Amended by 1977 c.207 §1; 1991 c.67 §36; 1993 c.735 §1; 1995 c.670 §2; 1999 c.1040 §3; 2009 c.316 §2; 2009 c.499 §4]

 

[USMC1345]

I keep a carry gun in the locked glove box of my locked car in my locked garage. If for some reason I park outside, that piece comes inside with me. I do have a custom secure box 'permanently' attached to my vehicle with another gun and other supplies, ready to be placed in my 'get home bag' in a SHTF scenario where I can't drive home.

 

[Trlsmn]

NANO VAULT 300 - HANDGUN SAFES

Seems like a reasonable solution to the issue. Cable tied to the driver's side seat frame...

Playing devil advocate here............

 

[raftman]

This is the way I understand it too but I have to say that I just looked up the Oregon firearm statutes and I don't see any wording that says this is the case.

The law relies on the firearm being locked into the glovebox of a vehicle that has no outside storage, if the firearm is in the vehicle in an unlocked glove box there seems to be no protection for the passenger other than the legitimate owners honor to claim it is his, at least from what I can find in the statutes.

And that's why I worry. Firstly cuz it suggests the glove box would have to be locked even if I am present in the vehicle (and there's a passenger present). Meaning if I am driving the car and heaven forbid I need the gun... I'd have to take the key out of the ignition to unlock the glove box? Seems less than ideal.

Secondly it seems to leave room for interpretation. There's got to be quite a few LEO's out there who will assume if it's not spelled out as being legal, it must not be legal. Heck, even when something is spelled out as being legal, some will argue the contrary.

The laws you cited, the way I read them, seem to say a passenger can get in trouble:

(b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle;

To me, this suggests it doesn't matter that it's my gun and my car.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

You won't find it addressed in the handgun code. It would fall under general statutes regarding legal possession. It is the reason we had to let most passengers go during drug stops if they did not have any drugs on them personally and did not own the vehicle.

 

[MEP1000]

Because items secured inside a vehicle and not physically on the person of the passenger are not legally in their possession unless they are the registered owner of the vehicle.

You won't find it addressed in the handgun code. It would fall under general statutes regarding legal possession. It is the reason we had to let most passengers go during drug stops if they did not have any drugs on them personally and did not own the vehicle.

Don't forget constructive possesion. You can indeed charge a passenger for drugs, weapons etc etc. Big thing to note is where is the key to the glovebox/locking container or was it even locked in the first place.

 

[Kid@Heart]

I have a friend that used keep his .45 in his truck (locked in a plastic center console), one night his truck was broken into. At first he was mortified since there was also a garage door opener which would allow access to his home as well as all his tools, 4 tricked out Banshees, etc. He became terrified when he had noticed they got into his console and realized not only did the tweaker criminals have access to his house where him, his wife and 2 kids were sleeping, they were now armed. That is enough to make me think twice about leaving a gun, or anything else that could be used against me in a car without it being locked in a safe. While it's true thieves and criminals are the ones responsible for what they do, I don't think that would have been much comfort if those tweakers had decided to go into my friends house that night. It's just too easy to carry my gun out of my car at night, or lock it up in the day, when I can't have it on me.

Why would you leave the gun in the car overnight?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Don't forget constructive possesion. You can indeed charge a passenger for drugs, weapons etc etc. Big thing to note is where is the key to the glovebox/locking container or was it even locked in the first place.

I have never seen or heard of that working for items found inside a glove box (or even in a container under a seat) unless you can show conclusive evidence that the drugs were in the possession of the passenger prior to being stored away (and specifically that they had knowledge of the items), which is very hard to do even if you witness them stash the items. Even when the driver claims it is not theirs and that it belongs to the passenger the driver usually ends up taking the fall if they are the legal owner of the vehicle. Constructive possession is considered in most cases to be almost unprovable without video tape of an incident. That is why DA's seldom bring charges against the passenger....but vehicle laws have changed so everyone should make sure for themselves.

A gun would be even harder to show this with since it has an established legal owner who can claim it as their property. Now if the driver is in illegal possession of the gun and then tells the officer "That is not my gun. My friend must have stuck it in their." you have a different story all together.

 

[cyclesarge]

Why would you leave the gun in the car overnight?

I wouldn't, unless I had a reasonable way to secure it while I was not in the vehicle. You can read other's reasons for it in the first two pages.

 

[cyclesarge]

If they were going to enter his home there are a lot easier and quieter ways to do it than opening the garage door.

That whole story is about the same hysteria level as being horrified to realize you have a home with a sliding patio door and a kitchen full of knives right next to it that a criminal could use against your family.

Not really, which guy would YOU rather be?
1) A guy opening a garage door (about 2' would do), wait 10 minutes, if no reaction enter the house, with your new .45.

2) A guy crashing though a sliding glass door, scrambling through the kitchen drawers looking for a house knife, with which you plan on attacking the gun wielding home owner.


Speaking of responsibility, I personally feel anyone who would leave a gun in a glove box (without a safe, alarm, video surveillance, etc.) citing the theft and subsequent actions are the sole responsibility of the thief, is only dodging the responsibility every gun owner has to properly secure that gun.

It all comes down to what you perceive as "reasonable precautions". I've had too many cars broken into (3 without alarms, 1 with) to think a locked plastic glove box is a "reasonable precaution".

 

[FritZ PDX]

I am looking at purchasing a Gun Vault for each of our vehicles. I don't plan on leaving a pistol in them, but I would like a secure place to lock one up for the rare occasion its not legal/practical to carry it with me. Just last week I had to have an MRI and wasn't comfortable leaving my pistol in my vehicle so I decided to leave it at home. (Yes I could have taken it into the doctors office with me, but I am a concealed carry type of person who would rather keep it completely concealed, out of sight, and don't like people seeing or knowing I carry.)

As for locking it in the glove box I see nothing wrong with that, I guess its just your own choice. I myself am a little too paranoid to do so. Not to mention my wife has so much crap in our glove box's my pistol probably wouldn't fit.

 

[MountainBear]

Playing devil advocate here............

Damned boyscouts. Always prepared...