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If SIG ever stops making the classic P22X guns, it is nice to know that CZ makes a DA/SA gun that are reportedly as good or better, in different variations.

I've got both and there are things I like about each of them. One big plus of CZ is with the metal frame guns they'll all work with larger capacity mags (like Glocks). Sig seems to like having dedicated mags for each model.
 
I've got both and there are things I like about each of them. One big plus of CZ is with the metal frame guns they'll all work with larger capacity mags (like Glocks). Sig seems to like having dedicated mags for each model.

Well, 226->229->224 all can use the mags from the larger cap guns. The 229 can use 228 mags too.

Not many aftermarket mags for the DA/SA classic metal framed guns though, at least not quality mags, and not higher cap mags like Glocks - the largest reliable mags are 20 rounders from Mec Gar who used to make most of the SIG mags for SIG.

My main complaint about SIG is they discontinue too many good guns - e.g., the 227 and the 224.
 
Cz 75b I just picked up yesterday. Like it alot.

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Top tier (primary defensive use, training, ultra reliable and well made):
CZ 75 and variants [Perfect designs]
Sig Sauer P226 and P229 (Edited to correct model number) [Perfect designs]
Bersa Thunder Pro. Often overlooked, I highly recommend this gun. [Perfect designs, but hard to find parts and mags for.]

Second tier (would work for defense in a pinch but there's better options)
SW 5906, 6906, and many variants (served well as police guns for decades)[I don't care for the safety/decocker slide mount location, ergos and operation. Also loses points for mag disconnect, and tricky re-assembly.]
Browning HP (excellent, the legend, but a bit behind the curve in trigger and capacity)
Beretta 92FS and variants (can't ignore it's proven legacy in the military) [I don't care for the safety/decocker slide mount location, ergos and operation.]
Kahr K9 (excellent compact)

Third tier (range duty, collecting, plinking, training guns, trade fodder, loaners) [These all lose points based on age, scarcity of parts, lack of quality control or some other issues or problems.]
Zastava CZ999 (this is not a CZ, it's similar to a Sig P series)
Clones of CZ75s and variants, such as Tanfoglio, Astra, EAA Witness
Taurus 92 and 99 (Beretta clones)
Star BM
Copied from someone else's list. I have seen it before and still disagree with the tiers.
 
For the all metal "wonder 9" criteria I'll go with the "Zed", the CZ-75. Fits well, especially for a double stack, shoots well, reliable, etc. It also shoots very balanced and controlled.

My carry pistols are all lightweight polymer and I enjoy them as well, but at the range the CZ (mine is actually a Tangfolio because CZ's couldn't be imported at the time) in comparison is like driving a Bentley when your daily driver is a Camry.
I too started buying Tanfoglio's because of the import ban on CZ's. Tanfoglio started improving the design to the point that I prefer them over a CZ, not that I wouldn't buy one, especially the Shadow 2 or Tactical Sport. Most recent purchase was a 99099 Witness Steel Compact 14+1 9mm.
 
I finally was able to get some trigger time with CZ-75. Odd's'n ends:

  • I was shooting 115-grain ball.
  • The magazines were two (2) factory 16-round, two (2) Mec-Gar 19-round, and one (1) Pro-mag 32-round.
  • Zero malfunctions with the 16 and 19 round magazines. All loaded to full capacity.
  • Two failures to feed on the Pro-Mag 32-rounder which was loaded to capacity. Not surprised nor care because this was for the giggles.
  • Shooting impressions:
    • It points nicely.
    • Minimal recoil.
    • I really like the trigger pull on this one.
    • The sights are pretty good and I had no trouble scoring hits on the gong, spinner, and a lonely bowling pin at various ranges.
    • Rock solid reliable.
    • As a basic, full-sized 9x19㎜ Parabellum pistol, it certainly fits.
    • When I was a young child, the two full sized pistols my father had were an Astra A-80 and Browning Hi-Power, both in 9x19㎜, and this outing sort of reminded me of shooting those a long time ago.
Anywho, just thought I'd provide an update. Hope you are all well on this sunny Sunday morning. :)
I have two of the Pro-Mags and don't trust them. 25 rounds are the most that i have got out of one before a failure. Because of this, I don't buy any Pro-Mags for any gun.

I stick with the flush fit 17 round Mec-Gar for my Tanfoglio's.
 
My CZ 75 B just had its 18th birthday. 1,000's of rounds of joy and never one FTL, FTF, or FTE with OEMs and Mec-Gars; accept when I was playing with springs to find the recoil 'sweet spot' for 'back on point'. To be honest she was born a 40 S&W and hasn't been configured as a nine yet. I been saving my pennies for a CZ Custom Shop Shadow 2 slide, so no worries folks she will be neutered as soon as I can arrange it and the shooting world will be assuaged, so no 40 hate please.

Even in 9 or 22 Kadet, I am sure nothing will feel as right in my hand as she does. When I first picked it up the clerk had to practically take it from me so he could do the paper work to finish the sale. Barretas, Glocks, Brownings, 1911s and a host of wheelguns no, and I mean absolutely no, handgun has been as comfortable, well balanced or for me been as natural of a pointer, and the moderate weight even tames (somewhat) a 40's snap. Unfortunately her brushed nickle finish and her caliber have both been consigned to history by CZ.

With the new super bullets I am sure I won't be risking my security by adding the nine to her repertoire. I am thinking I will add the 9 to her sister (CZ P09 in 40) as well. Even without today's and our future's ammo climate, the versatility is another trait I admire about the CZ 75; but given the ease of casting boolits for reloading in the 40 those O.G. 40 slides might be pretty handy when you can't get the 9s in the tailor-made super bullet any more. Just sayin'...

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Copied from someone else's list. I have seen it before and still disagree with the tiers.

With respect, if you're implying I copied that I did not and respectfully demand you rescind such a remark. Those are my opinions and my original typed list, and I own all those guns and can prove it if tasked. (Except the Browning HP, which I sold. But I've owned one and carried one in a combat theater so I'm well versed in the pistol.)
 
My favorite is CZP01. Great ergos, light aluminum frame, Good trigger out of the box and easy to improve to a great trigger if you are handy enough to do the work. Bonus: Its got a hammer so I can put my thumb over so I don't shoot myself in the junk when putting it in my appendix holster.

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With respect, if you're implying I copied that I did not and respectfully demand you rescind such a remark. Those are my opinions and my original typed list, and I own all those guns and can prove it if tasked. (Except the Browning HP, which I sold. But I've owned one and carried one in a combat theater so I'm well versed in the pistol.)
If it is truly your list, I apologize and there is an exact (or as close as you can get) list on the internet that I remember seeing and disagreeing with. It was from a known writer/shooter.

So, unless you posted your list under a different name, someone copied you (in the past).:s0140:

Again, I apologize, but it looked so close, even the tiers, guns and format are a mirror image of what I remember. My biggest disagreement was putting Tanfoglios in the third tier. I will match my Tanfoglios against any CZs of the same era. That is why I remember it.

Now you have me scouring the internet for that three tier rating of 9mm pistols.
 
I guess great minds think alike. I can again state I typed that list from my own personal experiences and owning all those guns and carrying several in personal defense or for combat deployments. I appreciate the appologies.
 
I guess great minds think alike. I can again state I typed that list from my own personal experiences and owning all those guns and carrying several in personal defense or for combat deployments. I appreciate the appologies.
I do have a question about why you placed CZ75 and variants in the first tier and then put Clones of CZ75s and variants, such as Tanfoglio, Astra, EAA Witness in the third tier. They seem to be the same thing.

I will put my Tanfoglios (and my Witness Steel Compact) up against any CZs of the same era. Tanfoglio actually made some improvements in the 1990's (IMHO) on the CZ75 design. Not trying to start a "which is better" war.:)
 
I do have a question about why you placed CZ75 and variants in the first tier and then put Clones of CZ75s and variants, such as Tanfoglio, Astra, EAA Witness in the third tier. They seem to be the same thing.

I will put my Tanfoglios (and my Witness Steel Compact) up against any CZs of the same era. Tanfoglio actually made some improvements in the 1990's (IMHO) on the CZ75 design. Not trying to start a "which is better" war.:)

It's a fair question. I may be willing to move them to 2nd Tier upon more reflection... eh, it's borderline.

First, CZ gets top tier due to design, authenticity, support, wide military and police adoption, wide use in handgun competitions (among the top choice), innovation, and testing. I remember getting into CZ circa 2004 or so, reading about the NATO testing standards that the then-new CZP01 surpassed and it was very impressive durability testing. I don't know if it was true then, and even if so it may no longer be true, but at that time CZ's marketing was that CZ pistols were the most widely used and adopted by law enforcement in the world. A remarkable claim, perhaps embellishment, that I'm not sure has ever been confirmed but they must have based it on something...

I'm generally a fan of innovation and not of ripoffs (although I do own many ripoff designs, like CZ clones). I've never read, nor heard, of any similar testing done by any clones. So just because you can make a gun that cosmetically looks like a CZ at a fraction of the price, will it perform the same? I don't think it will. Part of my bracketing in 3rd Tier revolves around lack of any major professional adoption by global police and military. Part of my bracketing is whether these guns, support, or parts will be around in a few years.

My Tanfoglios are well made Italian pistols, no doubt. But whereas I've never heard of serious CZ problems, it's not uncommon to hear about poorly made Tanfoglios. And they have that really poor ergonomic design of a slide mounted "flip forward" decocker/safety mechanism that I subjectively do not like. So they lose points for that. As for the EAAs, Turkish made SARs, etc. - While mine are generally reliable, they would not be my choice to trust my life to them, as low cost (e.g. low quality control) variants. Some like Tanfoglio and EAA seem to have some weird co-manufacturing or importing relationship that's hard to decipher. Who even makes these? Here, I do have to rely on broader internet research as I haven't personally had failures, but EAA is known to have failures and terrible customer service. SAR - I believe - also have non-existent customer support and the guns are so recent on the scene we just don't have long-term feedback. Contrasted with CZ, in the few times I've had to deal with customer support it's been A+ service with immediate satisfaction (damaged bushing on a CZ97, had a new one in the mail to me immediately; had a recalled P07, had a free shipping label to send in and a new gun sans shipping time without any hassle).

So in my eyes, in total the clones are just not as good as the real deal IMHO. That revolves around the actual gun as a machine to save my life (including design, build, ergonomics, testing, etc.), and the confidence in the gun based on the professionals who also pick it, and the back end support of the company for their product.
CZ #1 tier. Clones #3 tier but maybe I could be persuaded to be #2 tier. Probably not.
 
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It's a fair question. I may be willing to move them to 2nd Tier upon more reflection... eh, it's borderline.

First, CZ gets top tier due to design, authenticity, support, wide military and police adoption, wide use in handgun competitions (among the top choice), innovation, and testing. I remember getting into CZ circa 2004 or so, reading about the NATO testing standards that the then-new CZP01 surpassed and it was very impressive durability testing. I don't know if it was true then, and even if so it may no longer be true, but at that time CZ's marketing was that CZ pistols were the most widely used and adopted by law enforcement in the world. A remarkable claim, perhaps embellishment, that I'm not sure has ever been confirmed but they must have based it on something...

I'm generally a fan of innovation and not of ripoffs (although I do own many ripoff designs, like CZ clones). I've never read, nor heard, of any similar testing done by any clones. So just because you can make a gun that cosmetically looks like a CZ at a fraction of the price, will it perform the same? I don't think it will. Part of my bracketing in 3rd Tier revolves around lack of any major professional adoption by global police and military. Part of my bracketing is whether these guns, support, or parts will be around in a few years.

My Tanfoglios are well made Italian pistols, no doubt. But whereas I've never heard of serious CZ problems, it's not uncommon to hear about poorly made Tanfoglios. And they have that really poor ergonomic design of a slide mounted "flip forward" decocker/safety mechanism that I subjectively do not like. So they lose points for that. As for the EAAs, Turkish made SARs, etc. - While mine are generally reliable, they would not be my choice to trust my life to them, as low cost (e.g. low quality control) variants. Some like Tanfoglio and EAA seem to have some weird co-manufacturing or importing relationship that's hard to decipher. Who even makes these? Here, I do have to rely on broader internet research as I haven't personally had failures, but EAA is known to have failures and terrible customer service. SAR - I believe - also have non-existent customer support and the guns are so recent on the scene we just don't have long-term feedback. Contrasted with CZ, in the few times I've had to deal with customer support it's been A+ service with immediate satisfaction (damaged bushing on a CZ97, had a new one in the mail to me immediately; had a recalled P07, had a free shipping label to send in and a new gun sans shipping time without any hassle).

So in my eyes, in total the clones are just not as good as the real deal IMHO. That revolves around the actual gun as a machine to save my life (including design, build, ergonomics, testing, etc.), and the confidence in the gun based on the professionals who also pick it, and the back end support of the company for their product.
CZ #1 tier. Clones #3 tier but maybe I could be persuaded to be #2 tier. Probably not.
Boy, I would love to hear your opinion of 1911's. Is Colt the only true 1911 and all of the others 3rd tier?:)

Both Israel and Turkey, among others, use/used Tanfoglios (and parts) or variants for military and police use.

By the way, I only own one Tanfoglio with a slide mounted safety - it is the one that I use the most.
 
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