Elk calibers

[elkoholic79]

after 200yrds the 7rum has more energy than the 300 rum...and after 400yds more than the 338 rum that being said it is a ford, chevy, dodge kind of discusion, or at least what side of the mountains you hunt on in oregon, ...about wind deflection though i will agree that the 338 rum would have less WD than the 7mm rum but the 30 grn difference between the 300 rum and the 7mm rum would make WD difference trivial also accounting the higher velocity of the 7mm rum.... about bigger holes??? two words "hydrostatic shock" Hydrostatic shock is a theory of terminal ballistics that wounding effects are created by a shock wave in the tissues of the target. Evidence of such shock can be seen in ultra-high-speed images of supersonic bullets passing through various objects such as fruit; the fruit explodes due to the shock waves caused by the bullet passing through at high speeds. Damage to the brain from hydrostatic shock from a shot to the chest occurs, There is scientific evidence that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects. The debate between proponents of bullets that are "light and fast" versus bullets that are "slow and heavy" often refers to this phenomenon. VLD, VERY LOW DRAG FAST BULLETS are the key to reaching hydrostatic shock on an elk you need about 12" of penetration to cause temporary cavitation.

all this being said i think all RUM calibers discussed are more than enough for any game we have in the northwest.. even more ironic is that i bow hunt and am not a rifle hunter, i do enjoy long range shooting and have been more than impressed with my 7mm RUM

 

[the4thshake]

The above post is full of both information and misinformation.

Your comment on the 7mm rum having more energy after 200 yards just isn't true. I ran the the info through a ballistics program and both bigger calibers have more energy across the board.

For a bullet to loose energy at a slower rate it would have to loose velocity at a slower rate. I think this is where you are confused about VLD bullets. All of the bullets in question are available in VLD designs. VLD bullets have a higher BC and retain velocity better then a traditional design.

The hydrostatic shock theory is a whole other can of worms. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Do you really think a chest shot can damage the brain?

 

[Buano]

Do you really think a chest shot can damage the brain?

I don't think a chest shot can damage the brain. I know it. A chest shot can damage the brain by depriving it of oxygen.

That said, hydrostatic shock is real. I have liquified a deer's heart, lungs, and half a liver with a .25 caliber bullet. Unless that bullet bounced around for 25 minutes inside the chest cavity it couldn't possibly have torn through that much tissue. I have also made a 6" hole (exit wound) through a deer with a .284 bullet. Hydrostatic shock does that damage.

Hydrostatic shock increases kill-power greatly but it also "encouraged" me to reach for smaller cartridges when meat hunting.

 

[elkoholic79]

shake, i dont know what ballistic program your using but it obviously differs from mine i posted all results from mine and im only stating the facts based off those figures, no confusion on VLD my friend and as far as hydrostatic shock it is a very real fact this is more of my field of knowlege based in a medical background, Emotional shock, terror, or surprise can cause a person to faint, surrender, or flee when shot or shot at. Emotional fainting is the likely reason for most "one-shot stops," and not an intrinsic quality of any firearm or bullet; there are many documented instances where suspects have instantly dropped unconscious when the bullet only hit an extremity, or even completely missed! Additionally, the muzzle blast and flash from many firearms are substantial and can cause disorientation, dazzling, and stunning effects; flashbangs are a good example.... the mind will shutdown to try to reset under severe distress, febrile seizures are a good example of this if a child becomes to febrile or feverish the mind will sieze to stop the body and attempt to rest and reset neuropaths and inputs

 

[therifleman]

My shooting/hunting partner sold me his 300rum sendero and opted for the same rifle in 7rum and kicks himself in the butt every time we take the big ones out for a test run. The 180 berger vld is the only bullet he has found that will come close to the 300. When compared to all others the 300 comes out on top because of selection of bullets available at any sporting goods store selling reloading gear. The 240 grain sierra match king has a bc of .711 putting it ahead of almost anything out there.

 

[the4thshake]

The .338 300grain Sierra Match King has a BC of .768. Most traditional hunting bullets have lousy BC figures.

I wasn't claiming hydrostatic shock didn't exist. A 7mm VLD doesn't have some magical ability to liquify flesh. Many different bullets can make messy wounds. Does that make them a good choice for a hunting bullet?
A thin jacketed bullet will fragment causing massive trauma. Match bullets such as the magical VLD are constructed with thin jackets. The shape of the bullet is designed to reduce air resistance. The shape of these bullets is not a wounding mechanism.

 

[SDR]

shake, i dont know what ballistic program your using but it obviously differs from mine i posted all results from mine and im only stating the facts based off those figures, no confusion on VLD my friend and as far as hydrostatic shock it is a very real fact this is more of my field of knowlege based in a medical background, Emotional shock, terror, or surprise can cause a person to faint, surrender, or flee when shot or shot at. Emotional fainting is the likely reason for most "one-shot stops," and not an intrinsic quality of any firearm or bullet; there are many documented instances where suspects have instantly dropped unconscious when the bullet only hit an extremity, or even completely missed! Additionally, the muzzle blast and flash from many firearms are substantial and can cause disorientation, dazzling, and stunning effects; flashbangs are a good example.... the mind will shutdown to try to reset under severe distress, febrile seizures are a good example of this if a child becomes to febrile or feverish the mind will sieze to stop the body and attempt to rest and reset neuropaths and inputs

Dang! ,
So if I get a 7MM RUM The muzzle blast and flash will or can make my Elk faint or go into shock , Even if I miss...? , I'm sold , I need one of these... ...I can save money and weight and get rid of my scope........

OK,
Just messing around , I know your serious....

 

[therifleman]

By gosh SDR you may be on to something there! We better not let them thar libberalls catch wind of this though or they will say we dont need no guns at all we just can take firecrackers huntin with us!

 

[OPAWY]

30-06, and Marlin 444 for the woods. I had a 300RUM, that really didn't do anything more spectacular than my 30-06, except cost more for ammo. Dead is dead.

 

[John316]

Here's some of what I've learned hunting the Cascades for elk. It almost always rains or snows (in Oregon), so I went to synthetic stainless rifle because I literally ruined the stock finish on a Savage 99A in 375 Winchester. I find the elk to be extremely hard to locate after the deer rifle season. After all, they don't know all those shots during deer season aren't for them, they just split up and hide. I sight my rifles in for 50 yards, against conventional wisdom. Almost all shots in the Cascades are close, real close. If you know you're hunting clear cuts, that's different, sight in for 200 yards. Know the trajectory of your rifle, PERIOD! I hate recoil so I have settled on a Sako 85 Stainless Synthetic .338 Federal with 185 grain Barnes Triple shocks. If you're not familiar with the 338 Federal, it's a 338 based on a 308 case. Nice balance of recoil, power, trajectory. Mines sighted in for 50 yards. I have fired it to 600 yards and it's no slouch, compares with 180 grain 30/06. Good news is if you go to Gunbroker.com you'll find the Sako 85 in various configurations in 338 Federal ONLY for less than $800 from EuroOptic due to the caliber being discontinued. All other calibers run about $1500, making this the bargain of the century. And nobody can tell you a Sako is no good. Buy it once, buy it for life. Plan on hunting thickets because the elk will be kegged up in small pockets of thick cover. Avoid the long, loud, heavy recoiling calibers as you won't want to pack them in most of the Cascades, and especially where the elk are hiding. Think close range, short barrel, large diameter, stealthy, sneak and peek type hunt. Slow down, make 'em nervous.

 

[therifleman]

That was a very good article John316! I like reading about other folks tactics. Wish I could still get out and walk that way, it sounds like a lot of fun. Ive never done anything with 338 federal and often wondered what they are. Thanks for the information.

 

[2506]

for elk, I shoot a 338 Win. I use a 250 SGK over 75gr H4831 and get a consistent 2850 fps. That's elk medicine for sure.

I just bought a Remington SPS in 300 Win and just starting to work up a load. Not that I don't favor the 338, it's just that she's a custom rifle, blued with English walnut and getting to be about 20 years old.

 

[tcs#1]

Encore 300 win mag
i am going to get on the barnes wagon this year tho

 

[2506]

I've never been able to get the Barnes to shoot, might be the loose screw behind the trigger.

I was going to give the Berger VLD Hunting bullets a go. The 168 grainers look intriguing.

 

[tcs#1]

Yep, I have some of those bergers too, Just got a new Swarovski that is going on my encore, the nikon 4x14x is going on my new TC Icon 243

Should be a sweet mix

 

[TheLews]

I live in western WA and I prefer the standard 30.06. I own a ruger stainless synthetice modle 77 mark II and I love it. The best weapon I have ever owned. I like that it came with the scope mounts and in .06 you can find ammo anywhere. I have been to many mom and pop stores and they only carry most standard callibers; 270 .06 ect. I would go with something like that.

 

[longcolt]

Man that took me forever to read 18 pages! But it was very educational about hunting and all the favorite calibers that each hunter swears by.

I don't think I saw one person that used the 450 Marlin which is a nice Elk cartridge also. Or good for ole grizz if he happens to be in the area.

 

[45_70Sharps]

Man that took me forever to read 18 pages! But it was very educational about hunting and all the favorite calibers that each hunter swears by.

I don't think I saw one person that used the 450 Marlin which is a nice Elk cartridge also. Or good for ole grizz if he happens to be in the area.

450 is a great caliber. Probably the reason you didn't see it is that the only reason for the 450 was to be able to sell 45-70 loaded to it's potential without worry of someone loading it into an old trapdoor and getting hurt.
No need for the 450 if you load your own. I've got a couple of 45-70's though.

As for some of the guys who preach the ballistic charts and killing power of the small bullets, if you look up the 45-70 it doesn't look like much of a killing round. There isn't anything that holds up to a 45-70.
I have shot deer with the 444, 45-70 and 338 win mag that went down right now. Never had one run a single step when you put one of these through the chest. Some whitetails have done flips even when hit from the side. Their last bit of energy in their body was spent trying to stand back up (unsuccessfully) instead of running down into a canyon.
Don't get me wrong, I have a couple of 7MM mags and have shot lots of deer with my 270, but the charts don't tell the whole story. I have taken the heart out on deer with the 270 and had them run.
Lots of dead animals don't agree with the charts.
Most guys don't shoot enough to take advantage of any of the long range edge that the magnums have over a 30-06 anyway.

 

[45_70Sharps]

I've never been able to get the Barnes to shoot, might be the loose screw behind the trigger.

I was going to give the Berger VLD Hunting bullets a go. The 168 grainers look intriguing.

The only thing that I've loaded Barnes in was my Ruger no. 1 in 458. It would make the bullet holes touch at 200 yards!!

I am going to mess around with the Berger bullets in my 7mm Remington 40x though.

 

[tcs#1]

I remember when Barnes 1st came out and I tried them in my 270 win.

It was the most inaccurate barrel fouling bullet I ever tried and I gave them up for the good ol' Hornady and Nosler Bullets

The last couple of years tho, I have been hearing nothing but phenomenal results with the 'new' Barnes in the accuracy and killing department

While I swear by the Nosler Partition I'm not so old as to learn some new tricks so Barnes it is this year

I got 50 of the 168gr TTSX Boattails that I'll load up for my Encore 300 win mag and my partners #1 300 Weatherby

And then 50 of the 130gr TTSX for my TCR 308

Once I get my scopes settled down and a nice day off we'll see what they do