Elk calibers

[JC9995]

I just read an interesting article in the most recent Rifleman mag. It is about the new Hornady "Superformance" ammunition they have developed. The jist of the article is all about how they created this new powder for this line of ammo. It has what they call "progressiveness", which basically means that the powder can burn at different rates dependent on the pressure in the case. They claim just about the same thing that the WSM's do, more velocity with less recoil. With the largest reduction in recoil found by reducing or eliminating the "rocket effect" of gasses jetting out of the muzzle after the projectile leaves. They claim that most of the recoil in conventional rifles are due to this rocket effect.
So, by comparison, the WSM's claim to do about the same thing, but by expanding the leading edge of the powder. It has the capability of producing more push in any given instant, but due to thermodynamics and powder selection, they claim the same thing Hornady does.
As stated earlier however, I as well as everyone else would have to decide for themselves. But recoil has more to do than just bullet weight and velocity. Its not quite that simple. Merry Christmas guys.

 

[Woodswalker]

Just this year over thanksgiving a Cow Elk hunt... Thirteen guys in camp,One particular kid was catching a huge amount of guff from the rest of the kids,He had a 30/30 lever gun,Not my choice,But we can work with it...The rest had 308,06's,7mm's...out of all the kids in camp the boy with a 30/30 was the only one to kill a Elk...50 Yrds behind the shoulder went fifteen feet and tipped over...I have done this same shot many times with a 300Win mag and they took off like I missed,I did not of course but the animal reaction was like it did not feel a thing...The 30/30 reaction was you know it was hit hard and the results much faster as it going down...

Like anything you can have a good plan on paper but the proof is in the field...

My question is with all this who whoa about fast small bullets being the ticket,Would you trust these to do the job on a thousand pound charging brown bear ?...Or would you want a bigger slower moving bullet so that animal that wants to tear you to shreds and eat you feels all the energy of that bigger bullet ... Elk are just as tough,They just don't want to eat you,Your mistake won't cost you your life , But it could cause a Elk to be wounded and suffering your mistake...

Had to smile when i saw this one...my first 5 elk were taken with a Winchester 94 in .32 Winchester Special (just a fat-bullet 30-30)...I have hunted for over 25 years with a 30-06...seems to work JUST fine...farthest I have needed to take a critter at has been 175 yards

 

[TMan1911]

You can shoot with 338 and bigger if you wish but can you hit and can you see and hold your rifle steady enough in the field for such a shot. Are we all one shot one kill shooters here if your answer is NO you are honest and still among the living. Load slower with the 30 cal many options 30-30 have been know to take down big game no doubt, head shot easy management of the rifle and less recoil of course again result in better lethal shot. Instant kill have lots of contributions vital organs being one, bullet expansion if impact energy damage done timely. Speed is an ..?! So fatter bullet is not always the answer just new element of bullet energy and a whole can of worms for reloader without chronometer. Load for the speed you wish for the distance you hunt see it first hand shoot a rock @5=6" big if it blows up you are ready.

 

[Gunner3456]

You can shoot with 338 and bigger if you wish but can you hit and can you see and hold your rifle steady enough in the field for such a shot. Are we all one shot one kill shooters here if your answer is NO you are honest and still among the living. Load slower with the 30 cal many options 30-30 have been know to take down big game no doubt, head shot easy management of the rifle and less recoil of course again result in better lethal shot. Instant kill have lots of contributions vital organs being one, bullet expansion if impact energy damage done timely. Speed is an ..?! So fatter bullet is not always the answer just new element of bullet energy and a whole can of worms for reloader without chronometer. Load for the speed you wish for the distance you hunt see it first hand shoot a rock @5=6" big if it blows up you are ready.

May I please have some of what you're smoking? Getting a little late, is it?

 

[TMan1911]

Gunner I smoke IMR 4350, 7828 for magnum and for the in between time H380 or H414 will do. Three shot touching @ 200 and plenty of game in the frig. Gun geek tends to disclose a bit of info does not hurt, but we all know hunting is a zen thing before and after the shot 8 hour plus hauling the game out takes its toll when shot placement is bad resulting in a non instant kill. Worst lost the game to a shooter 100 yrds away with a 30-30

 

[codeman583]

One rifle for everything reasonable? .30-06. Can't beat the price of ammo, either!

agreed here too.........................................................

 

[45_70Sharps]

Choose a rifle and caliber that you feel comfortable with and practice, practice and practice some more.

Exactly. I would stick to 30 Caliber or larger, but the big thing is to shoot what you can shoot comfortable. 338 is a great round that works wonders, but if you don't like shooting it, it won't be a good round for you.
45-70 is a great round within 100 - 150 yards also!

 

[dragonsden73]

For elk I use 300 Weatherby Mag....but that's about $3 a pop.......sucker drops what I aim it at though, so $3 for a sure kill ain't so bad considering what it cost to go. (Time off, vacation time, gas, food, more gas, .......)

 

[Poisonslinger]

I'm sort of the ‘hit-them-with-a-big-slow-hammer' sort of guy.

I have witnessed more game hit right with fast/high energy bullets run off (more than 100 yards) than I have seen run off when hit right with slow lead. In my mind, a poor shot has to be thrown out of the ‘good elk caliber/gun' discussion because you get completely differing and un-repeatable reactions from similar game with similar hits (IE I've seen gut shots kill immediately in their tracks and the same hit didn't faze others).

On the other hand I have not seen a good shot (heart/lung/head) allow an animal to wander very far. With that noted, I believe that a poor hit with a big piece of slow lead might give you a better chance of downing game or letting you find wounded game faster. – Personal opinion.

I enjoy the hunt more than the kill, so I typically try to ‘hunt' to within 100 to 200 yards. That betters the chance of good hits vs. poor hits.

I firmly (can't state that enough) believe with several others here, that KEY (say it again - KEY) to year-after-year successful hunts and good shots is practice and knowing your chosen rifle/load. This is a gross generalization, but up here in our elk country many locals are in the camp of not-so-magnum calibers, whereas many of the non-locals tend to bring in the wiz-bang calibers. I have a suspicion that they don't use that same gun on deer at home and are not as familiar with it as they should be.

I have found that elk are not hard to kill IF you have good shot placement with any legal caliber. However – they can be a VERY tough animal to kill if you have a poor shot – with any caliber/gun/arrow/etc.

I can best the deer-with-the-10-22 account; I know of a legal-take deer with a 17 HMR. We had a forked buck mule deer on an airport (inside the game fence) that a Sherriff shot with the airport's gofer gun. The expectation was to knock it out and then finish it with a service pistol – but killed it dead instantly with a shot under an eye. That doesn't mean that I recommend that we make that caliber legal.

A big benefit for those of us that eat the game we shoot (vs horn hunters that just donate the meat to others) is that with slower, more manageable bullets, I have always found less damage and more edible meat from meat-area hits. With slow lead I often can eat right up to the bullet hole. I normally cannot do that with game I hit in the same location with my .243/'06 or other fast mover. This is often over looked when picking a hunting caliber. A co-worker recently hit a bull elk at 35 yards in the high shoulder with a new .338 WM. The bullet exploded and shrapnel found it way up to and down both back-straps. He lost both shoulders and the back-straps when it was all done.

In contrast – I had a very poor shot with a 50-90 BPCR (yes I'll admit it) hit a large cow elk in the hind quarter. I got lucky and the round deflected off the hip joint and cut the main artery to her leg and she bled out very fast. But to the point I'm making - I was able to salvage that whole quarter. If the freezer is why you are hunting – I think that needs to be factored into the choice.

I've killed elk with:
1 with a 50-90 BPCR - 450 gr soft lead bullet;
3 with a 45-70 BPCR – 420 and 500 gr soft lead bullet (one at 325 yards);
1 with a 40-90 BPCR - 425 gr soft lead bullet;
2 with a 40-70 BPCR 425 gr soft lead bullet;

My daughter:
2 with a 38-55 BPCR (a non-necked 30-30 case) - 250 gr soft lead bullet
1 with a 40-50 BPCR - 300 gr soft lead bullet

Every one of these elk has been with a bullet traveling in the 1300 to 1700 FPS range and better than ½ of the bullets were not recovered (exited). I figure that any energy left in the bullet as it passes through the off-side hide is wasted.

Anyway – my 2 cents - worth what was paid....

PS: I'll finish by repeating my belief that the KEY to year-after-year successful hunts and good shots is practice and knowing your chosen rifle/load.

Rick Patton
Cody, Wyoming

- sort of a red head vs blond sort of thread! I enjoy them all....

This years elk for my daughter with the 40-50ss on an orginal Ballard action (new barrel and wood).

 

[Spitpatch]

Gunnluver and Trick are on the money. My father and I guided in Montana for an oufitter in the Bob Marshal Wilderness, and all the guides were happy to see someone arrive in camp with their .30-06, .308 or .270 (that more often than not was the only big game gun they owned), and were confident with it. On the other hand, we were leery of the guy who showed up with a .300 Magnum, .338, or such that had recently acquired it for the trip. We knew we'd have some "cleaning up" to do for him if he was lucky enough to hit an elk, because hit in the guts or the leg does not mean "only direction is down", no matter what caliber you are shooting.

More often than not, when I invite someone to shoot at my place that brags about his big magnum elk rifle, and we put him on the bench with it, he has trouble holding it within a 3 inch group at 100 yards. Almost without exception, these guys are afraid of their gun. Some people can shoot the magnums well. The ones that can, don't talk about it much. Most can't.

The Short Magnums are a recent craze that really have no great practical benefit over conventional cartridges, and there have been numerous reports of feeding problems from the magazine to the chamber. For a guy purchasing his first elk rifle, I'd discourage him from a short magnum. The plus side is that you save a tiny amount on the overall length of your gun when the barrel is 24" or longer. (And you almost absolutely need 24" or more to realize the full advantage of any magnmum.)

Any elk hit through the chest cavity with any moderately powered cartridge and stoutly constructed bullet is a dead elk. Any elk hit anywhere else with any cartridge is a problem nobody wants.

You are on the right track with your ideas about shorter range shots; combine that with a gun you can shoot well, and you can have no result but success.

I'll finish by saying read Gunluver and Tricks' posts again.

 

[markw76]

The Short Magnums are a recent craze that really have no great practical benefit over conventional cartridges, and there have been numerous reports of feeding problems from the magazine to the chamber.

Anyone that's been around long enough was just waiting for the easily impressed to find that out. There is a reason dangerous-game rounds have either a shallow or very gradual shoulder, like the .416 Rigby and the 300H&H. They feed virtually every time without hesitation. Sharp shoulders like the Ackleys are more an exercise in squeezing every bit of ballistic performance out of a given length cartridge case, but at the expense of reliability. And a stubborn-chambering case often makes noise getting it to feed.

 

[therifleman]

I invite you all to view a very good video called beyond belief. I was totally hooked on long range hunting from then on. Hour after hour of practice has enabled me to put 5 rounds in a 6 inch circle from 800 yds with my 300 ultra mag in remington sendero. Watch the vid and maybe you will change your mind also.

 

[elkoholic79]

7mm Remington ultra mag hands down!!!! flater than a 270 and more knockdown than a 300 WIN mag and for all the IDIOTS who will argue about the knock down do the math E ∝ mv² kinetic energy increases with the square of the speed. This means, for example, that an object traveling twice as fast will have four times as much kinetic energy. LESS RECOIL BETTER PERFORMANCE

7MM RUM
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded
WT MUZZ 100 200 300 400 500 YRDS
150 3325 3132 2948 2771 2602 2438 FPS

300 WIN MAG
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra
WT MUZZ 100 200 300 400 500 YRDS
180 2960 2727 2505 2294 2093 1903 FPS


7mm RUM
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded
WT MUZZ 100 200 300 400 500 YRDS
150 3682 3267 2894 2558 2254 1979 ENERGY


300 WIN MAG
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra
WT MUZZ 100 200 300 400 500
180 3501 2971 2508 2103 1751 1448 ENERGY

BIGGER IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER

 

[the4thshake]

Where is the 300 RUM or 338 RUM in your comparison? That would only be fair.

The RUM cartriges burn around 100 grains of powder. If your gonna have that kind of cannon make it a .338. Whats the barrel life of a 7mm Rum? Around 1k rounds or so.....

 

[therifleman]

I dont think I will ever shoot more than 1,000 round from my ultra mag hunting rifle. Maybe a couple hundred to get used to it and build a sweet load for it. After that its just killing stuff.

 

[SDR]

I dont think I will ever shoot more than 1,000 round from my ultra mag hunting rifle. Maybe a couple hundred to get used to it and build a sweet load for it. After that its just killing stuff.

LOL....I thought the same thing with the 300 RUM...1K is only fifty box's.... fifty box's goes pretty Quick when you fire three box's per sitting acrossed canyons...Blowing up milk jugs @ 6 , 7 , 8 hundred Yrds is pretty cool...

 

[elkoholic79]

the ballistics shake asked for

300 ultra mag
wt muzz 100 200 300 400 500
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 180 2980 2742 2515 2300 2096 1902 fps
wt muzz 100 200 300 400 500
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 180 3549 3004 2528 2114 1755 1445 energy

338 ultra mag
wt muzz 100 200 300 400 500
Premier® A-Frame 250 2860 2645 2440 2244 2057 1879 fps
wt muzz 100 200 300 400 500
Premier® A-Frame 250 4540 3882 3303 2794 2347 1960 energy

lets also compare the Trajectory
Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
338 ultra Premier® A-Frame 250 1.7 1.5 zero -3.0 -7.6 -22.1 -44.9
Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
300 ultra Premier® Core-Lokt® 180 1.6 1.4 zero -2.8 -7.1 -20.7 -42.4
Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
7mm ultra Premier® Scirocco™ 150 1.8 2.2 1.6 zero -2.6 -11.4 -25.3

LESS RECOIL, CHEAPER AMMO, FLATER SHOOTING, SAME ENERGY BEST ELK CALIBER

 

[SDR]

the ballistics shake asked for

300 ultra mag
wt muzz 100 200 300 400 500
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 180 2980 2742 2515 2300 2096 1902 fps
wt muzz 100 200 300 400 500
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 180 3549 3004 2528 2114 1755 1445 energy

338 ultra mag
wt muzz 100 200 300 400 500
Premier® A-Frame 250 2860 2645 2440 2244 2057 1879 fps
wt muzz 100 200 300 400 500
Premier® A-Frame 250 4540 3882 3303 2794 2347 1960 energy

lets also compare the Trajectory
Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
338 ultra Premier® A-Frame 250 1.7 1.5 zero -3.0 -7.6 -22.1 -44.9
Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
300 ultra Premier® Core-Lokt® 180 1.6 1.4 zero -2.8 -7.1 -20.7 -42.4
Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
7mm ultra Premier® Scirocco™ 150 1.8 2.2 1.6 zero -2.6 -11.4 -25.3

LESS RECOIL, CHEAPER AMMO, FLATER SHOOTING, SAME ENERGY BEST ELK CALIBER

These charts are all fine and dandy and all... Most factory ballistics for the particular caliber chosen are grossly inflated.. The real test is in the field,Through Brush , Through grass , Across canyons with turbulence and cross winds , All this affect bullet path... 284 Cal is easier to affect the bullet path then a 30 cal...
Anyone that has done any extensive testing will find this to be correct... A 7 Mag is like a laser , But it is easily compromised... If you shoot in the desert with no winds it would be awesome in my opinion... It is a Ford,Chevy ,Dodge thing... Besides they made target turrets and range finders for us that prefer a heavier bullet.....

 

[the4thshake]

Seems those bigger bullets have quite a bit more energy......and they punch a bigger hole.

Who would have thunk that.

There are only several bullets that take advantage of the performance the 7mm offers at that level. There are many more choices in bullets in the 30 cal size. Many of them will just about match the trajectory of the best 7mm bullets out there. That and they will pack more energy as well as bucking the wind better. The .338 is limited in bullet selection as well. It might not be as much of a lazer but it sure is a cannon. It packs a ton of energy and will retain it out to extreme ranges.

Unless you are doing long range hunting, the ultra mags might be a little overkill....is there such a thing?

 

[huntingharder]

Seems those bigger bullets have quite a bit more energy......and they punch a bigger hole.

Who would have thunk that.

There are only several bullets that take advantage of the performance the 7mm offers at that level. There are many more choices in bullets in the 30 cal size. Many of them will just about match the trajectory of the best 7mm bullets out there. That and they will pack more energy as well as bucking the wind better. The .338 is limited in bullet selection as well. It might not be as much of a lazer but it sure is a cannon. It packs a ton of energy and will retain it out to extreme ranges.

Unless you are doing long range hunting, the ultra mags might be a little overkill....is there such a thing?

I always prefer to have too much and not need it , Than to have not enough and really need it or wish I had it...