International Catalonia - Independence Vote

[Keegah]

Spain has a long and storied history of fascism. This can't really come as a surprise to anyone.

Stay strong, Catalonia.

 

[Adelaarvaren]

If you believe in democracy, I think you have to believe that a smaller government is always going to be more representative of the will of the people. So I have to say I support an independent Catalonia. And an independent Kurdistan for that matter...

 

[RicInOR]

Tens of thousands take to streets of Barcelona as Catalan crisis deepens

Head line says 10's of 1000 - other estimates 450000 -


Fears of violence as 450,000 take to the streets of Barcelona joined by independence leader following Spanish government bombshell

 

[RicInOR]

Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

BARCELONA — The escalating confrontation over Catalonia's independence drive took its most serious turn on Saturday as Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy of Spain announced he would remove the leadership of the restive region and initiate a process of direct rule by the central government in Madrid.

 

[RicInOR]

A Few Thoughts on Catalonia - Alvaro Vargas Llosa

The Catalan independence movement has drawn some support among libertarians.

From a theoretical standpoint, any group's attempt to break away from a larger political entity is hard to argue with. Ultimately, though, the principle of self-determination, taken to its logical extreme, would mean dissolving the state and replacing it with voluntary associations. Which is why some classical liberals have taken a more limited view of self-determination.

For now, a better cause for libertarians to rally around than Catalan nationalism is replacement of the Spanish welfare state with a liberal order and decentralizing the financial system underpinning the system of autonomous communities much more.

 

[RicInOR]

Confusion in Catalonia

If anyone was expecting clarity on the fate of Catalonia's independence bid from the Catalan president's scheduled address on Thursday—or indeed clarity on the direction of Spain's 40-year-0ld democracy—they didn't get it. But by this point in the drama, which is stretching into the fourth week since the Spanish region held and passed an independence referendum declared unconstitutional, inconsistency has become the consistent theme. In Thursday's installment, Catalan President Carles Puigdemont announced that he would neither unilaterally declare Catalan independence from Spain nor call for new elections in the region, opting instead to leave the fate of the secessionist bid to its regional lawmakers. "It is up to the [Catalan regional] parliament to proceed with what the majority determines," he said.

 

[Sandaholic]

Devil's Advocate:
Would you guys feel the same about California seceding? I certainly wouldn't. And I'm not saying the situations are the same by any means. Nor am I saying Catalonia doesn't have a right to independence.

I think the furthest I'd be okay with is if the Liberals that control Californias major cities really want to secede from the union the cities themselves can leave. And we will wall those silly idiots in there and treat them as a separate nation of islands. We would allow this nonsense in California only as a test trial. You want to travel into America? Where is your effing passport? We keep control of the Military bases, Seaports, Airport and Railways. We re-imburse Americans that don't want to live in commieland. It doesn't work out we go in and subdue those idiots. It could come to that anyway one day.

I hope it never happens but our values are so opposed it seems inevitable. Not necessarily my far fetched scenario, but American Civil War II.



Back on topic. It's a good thing for civilians to keep and bare arms.

 

[RicInOR]

This is BIG


Catalonia declares independence from Spain...




Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

 

[RicInOR]

Devil's Advocate:
Would you guys feel the same about California seceding? I certainly wouldn't. And I'm not saying the situations are the same by any means. Nor am I saying Catalonia doesn't have a right to independence..

Why can't a state secede? They have to apply to join the union and there are defined requirements.
But some are questionable. Where did West Virginia come from?
Where is the restriction on leaving? Just the threat of nuclear winter?

 

[Sandaholic]

Why can't a state secede? They have to apply to join the union and there are defined requirements.
But some are questionable. Where did West Virginia come from?
Where is the restriction on leaving? Just the threat of nuclear winter?

I don't mean to imply that a state can never secede. But IMO you have to look at the whole context. If California were to vote for secession and it passes, can said secession even be seen as legitimate when they let non-americans vote?

Regardless of where a person stands on the so called need for an influx of people to our nation throughout its history. It is a fact that those here illegally are not citizens and should never be considered to be citizens of the United States of America.

I think there are alot of people that want to start over and build something new. I don't see that happening peacefully.

And how do you think the majority of farmers and ranchers would feel in California if America abandoned them?

Another thing to think about is what nation or entities would benefit from a secession? Would China move right in?

Just thoughts.

 

[Argonaut]

When I was last in Spain the fascists and communists seemed to be fusing and were very active. We were forbidden from wearing American clothes or uniforms off base. Off course the Basques have longed for there own country for hundreds of years. I whitnessed some of that effort after the Spanish tried to appoint one of there people as the mayor in a Basque town. Probably the most brutal bloody event I ever saw. I don't think we have enough information as casual Americans to make an informed decision one way or another. Everything we know is filtered through the unreliable/dishonest news industry. The Catalonia region is one of the wealthier and would probably be successful as a nation but would also weaken Spain. It is easy to forget that we do not have a democracy....if we did, Hillary would be president and small states would have no say in anything the Fed was doing. Democracy is best illustrated by 4 wolves and one sheep voting on what's for dinner or a better example, Oregonians voting for governor.

 

[RicInOR]

Spain's regions are not like US States, either.

Plus, there is a thousand* years of history.


If you are going to quell and uprising, step 1, disarm the populous. Best if you can get them to think it was their idea, and want to comply.






* means some big number, not a specific one.

 

[awshoot]

FREE CASCADIA next. ;-)

 

[CountryGent]

The Declaration of Independence, that was passed by the now dissolved Parliament of Catalonia has been translated and can be read here. Just passing it along. Parts of it reminds me of an old saying:

"Val més andar sol que mal acompanyat. (Better to be alone than in bad company.)" — Catalan Proverb

 

[Diamondback]

I'm wary... Catalonia was the hotbed of Commies in the Spanish Civil War, and they did things there that rank right up there with Himmler and Mengele.

 

[RicInOR]

Opinion: Spain clamors for two-state solution, but not in Catalonia



'I Don't Want an Independent Catalonia': Rally Backs Unified Spain

 

[Argonaut]

Opinion: Spain clamors for two-state solution, but not in Catalonia



'I Don't Want an Independent Catalonia': Rally Backs Unified Spain

The bottom line to most Americans is Spain has not been an important player on the world stage since the Spanish civil war or earlier. They have Communist and Fascist leanings that are complicated and uninteresting. Most Americans knowlage of political Spain is either via Columbus or Hemingway. Similar to France, They have reduced there modern culture to a bedroom community increasingly inhabited by retired Englishmen because the natives can't afford a decent lifestyle. Other than being an interesting tourist destination, they have both become poor countries living on history and reputations made 1000 years ago while trying to retain the arrogance of a culture long lost.

 

[Argonaut]

The best year for Spain was 1492, that year they finally defeated the Muslims and had enough cash left over to fund Columbus. They were able to capitalize on Columbus by enslaving the indigenous people of an entire continent while stealing there wealth. But in the long run, that didn't even prolong or save there culture. The North American English/ Dutch/Puritan culture quickly overshadowed any Spanish advances and has continued to do so. The English capitalized on Tobbaco, Cotton, the fur trade. Sustainable industries compared with the short term wealth brought by plunder. Even France came to the point they were required to sell off the most valuable Western Hemisphere assets to fuel there short term unreasonable aspirations. It was the English, Irish, Dutch and Germans that stuck it out producing sustainable quality societies that endure today. Those farmers, merchants and industrialists along with our quality land mass that have made us the leader of every conceivable industry and quality of life in the world for the last 100 years. I have always felt there was a very dark evil streak running through the Spanish psychology.......maby it is a product of studying the Spanish Inquisition or there actions here in The America's, bull fights or allegiance with Hitler. I don't know just seems something is there.

 

[Diamondback]

I have always felt there was a very dark evil streak running through the Spanish psychology.......maby it is a product of studying the Spanish Inquisition or there actions here in The America's, bull fights or allegiance with Hitler. I don't know just seems something is there.

France too with how eagerly they went Full Metal Mass Beheading and then actively collaborated with Hitler... I suspect it's the dark side of Roman culture's ongoing legacy while the Britons ultimately kicked 'em off their island.

 

[FireArm]

You remember when a few states in the south wanted to leave the union, here in the States!?!
Only the most productive killing fields in history to that point in time. Issues are issues, but the feds arent fixin to let any state go.
Let alone an economy as large as California. I say screw commiefornia, let them succeed.
This is the same issue with Catalonia. That region is Spains major economic value. But let them succeed.
The Kurds saved Iraq from ISIS, they held it down when the US govt sat back with thumb in rectum not knowing what to do. the Kurds got screwed again by the US federal government.