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So when I read this, it seems like we will have to go through a background check when we buy 80% lowers. Does that seem correct to anyone else?
no. I read as no change in the law. Serialize and FFL when/if you want to sell/gift it away.
 
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no. I read as no change in the law. Serialize and FFL when/if you want to sell/gift it away.

So the bolded language is what concerns me:
  1. (1) No person may knowingly or recklessly allow, facilitate, aid, or abet the manufacture or assembly of an undetectable firearm or untraceable firearm by a person who: (a) Is ineligible under state or federal law to possess a firearm; or (b) has signed a valid voluntary waiver of firearm rights that has not been revoked under RCW 9.41.350. For purposes of this provision, the failure to conduct a background check as provided in RCW 9.41.113 shall be prima facie evidence of recklessness.
Would selling an 80% lower be allowing someone to manufacture the "untraceable firearm"? If so, it would seem like a background check would be required. None of the articles really mention this aspect of the law.
 
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So the bolded language is what concerns me:
  1. (1) No person may knowingly or recklessly allow, facilitate, aid, or abet the manufacture or assembly of an undetectable firearm or untraceable firearm by a person who: (a) Is ineligible under state or federal law to possess a firearm; or (b) has signed a valid voluntary waiver of firearm rights that has not been revoked under RCW 9.41.350. For purposes of this provision, the failure to conduct a background check as provided in RCW 9.41.113 shall be prima facie evidence of recklessness.
Would selling an 80% lower be allowing someone to manufacture the "untraceable firearm"? If so, it would seem like a background check would be required. None of the articles really mention this aspect of the law.
I see your point. Buying a lower is not manufacturing in my mind. The assisting in manufacturing I read as the same law as now. I am not a lawyer, not even on TV.
 
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I see your point. Buying a lower is not manufacturing in my mind. The assisting in manufacturing I read as the same law as now. I am not a lawyer, not even on TV.
Playing the Devil's advocate, If my friend lets me use his mill; on my own; he's supposed to run a background check? How, whose definition? He's just a guy with a mill in his garage. No FFL, no interest in guns...
 

awshoot

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Would selling an 80% lower be allowing someone to manufacture the "untraceable firearm"? If so, it would seem like a background check would be required. None of the articles really mention this aspect of the law.

Playing the Devil's advocate, If my friend lets me use his mill; on my own; he's supposed to run a background check? How, whose definition? He's just a guy with a mill in his garage. No FFL, no interest in guns...

Allow: the definition of allow
Facilitate: the definition of facilitate
Aid: the definition of aid
Abet: the definition of abet

Helping a person manufacture a firearm by selling a nearly completed lower, and especially by providing a jig and instructions --it is hard to argue that is not allowing, facilitating, aiding, or abetting.

Lending the use of equipment or tools to manufacture a firearm is also likely to be considered allowing, facilitating, aiding, or abetting.
 

awshoot

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The earliest versions of HB 1739 were extremely horrible (or maybe it was the Senate version), and while the final version is bad, it at least isn't AS bad. Mostly it makes the Federal prohibition against undetectable guns (must be metal detectable/xray detectable) also a state crime -- one of those laws that just makes something "illegaler".

You can still make your own metal guns so long as you do not intend to sell them. That's a bit squishy and I'm not sure what would be construed as intent to sell. Though the 80% issue above is new -- perhaps this will spark more creativity with a move toward 0% builds (although the mere sharing of information may become illegal -- 1A?).

I do worry for people who made polymer builds of rifles or pistols -- has anyone actually tested the frames/receivers on xray equipment to ensure compliance with Fed. and State law? I'm not aware. There is no grandfather clause for undetectable guns -- they are contraband on July 1 and possession is a crime.

Lastly, this is trumpeted as a law against 3D printed guns when in reality, it is a law against undetectable 3D printed guns. Polymer blends that include radio-opacifiers (the Fed. law mentions Barium Sulfate but there are many) would not run afoul of the law if the printed parts clearly showed up on xray machines. Perhaps even some of the metal filled filaments would pass the xray test, but before using them for a firearm, it would be good to see how they appear on xray (using a non-firearm shape).
 
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It is even possible to conduct a background check for an 80% lower? You're not transferring an item defined as a firearm.
In the case of "allowing, facilitating, aiding or abetting" you're not transferring any physical item at all.
 
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I think we need a law that says they need to show evidence that an object has a significant lethal impact before they can ban bubblegum. How many printed or guns that began as 80% recievers have been used in crime? Of that crime, what is the proportionality compared to other items used to facilitate the same crime? The burden needs to be on the state to show a need before they ban and regulate.
 
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I think we need a law that says they need to show evidence that an object has a significant lethal impact before they can ban bubblegum. How many printed or guns that began as 80% recievers have been used in crime? Of that crime, what is the proportionality compared to other items used to facilitate the same crime? The burden needs to be on the state to show a need before they ban and regulate.

I thought the hope was that a case coming before Supreme Court (I can't remember which) was a chance for them to rule that firearms laws are subject to strict scrutiny.

If they do, laws such as this come open to attack and the narrowly tailored and least restrictive requirements that come with strict scrutiny.
 

coltemp

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What you all are surprised Washington state passes a law that has massive undefined sections. What else is new. Look at 1639, 594, and most of the other pieces of junk forced on us. They all had massive holes, ill defined and contradictory phrasing. Why is anyone surprised?
Once again it will come down to will it be enforced and if not yet more garbage on the books.
 
It is even possible to conduct a background check for an 80% lower? You're not transferring an item defined as a firearm.
In the case of "allowing, facilitating, aiding or abetting" you're not transferring any physical item at all.

I was just looking for a non-lead material to make fishing sinkers (to save the birds, salmon, orcas) and found these strange aluminum blocks. Turns out, they are lousy sinkers. Gonna have to repurpose them.
 

Makers Mark

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Well I thought I had this figured out, but now I think I'm more confused. I get the whole helping someone else is a no go.

But this business of undetectable etc... Admittedly I've never seen a poly80 receiver, just what I've read/watched on the poly80 and other sites, so help me out here.

The poly80 receiver gets the rails trimmed, the holes drilled, and then built out (assembled) with a the parts (mostly metal) for the slide assembly and the lower receiver pieces (trigger group etc)?

Now it is completely assembled and contains X% of metal and is assumed to be 'detectable' as this point?

Thanks
 

awshoot

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It is even possible to conduct a background check for an 80% lower? You're not transferring an item defined as a firearm.
In the case of "allowing, facilitating, aiding or abetting" you're not transferring any physical item at all.

This ultimately isn't about physical objects, this law was proposed by Bob Ferguson due to the hoopla and irrational terror over CAD files. The law is designed to snare people sharing mere information, which is why it may run afoul of the 1st Amendment. But unless you want to be the person who puts their freedom on the line for a court case, do be careful with this legislation.
 

awshoot

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...
Now it is completely assembled and contains X% of metal and is assumed to be 'detectable' as this point?

There are two tests for an undetectable firearm and unless it passes both, it is contraband.

Metal Detector: the firearm (which in the context here refers to the whole thing based on the "firearm" definition in a different section, at least that is my opinion - see here) must set off a metal detector as well as 3.7 oz of stainless steel would set it off. Once you put all the metal parts into a gun or rifle, it will almost certainly pass this test.

Xray: the barrel, slide/cylinder, and the frame/receiver EACH have to generate an image that correctly shows its shape on common airport xray machines. If you have a gun where the slide and barrel show, but the frame doesn't, that is "undetectable", though only an idiot would fail to recognize it as a firearm.

The frame/receiver is visible to varrying degrees in these photos -- whether they "accurately depict the shape of the part" is going to be up to the discretion of a prosecutor and ultimately, judge or jury. I don't know of any standard definition of "accurate depiction".

xray1.jpg
xray2.jpg
xray3.jpg
 
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Let's say I currently own an untraceable gun and there is no grandfather clause. Now what? I'm I breaking the new law?
 
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