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Buyers Beware

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by FortRock, Oct 7, 2014.

  1. FortRock

    FortRock Bend/Salem, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I apologize for the length of my rant but there are a number of issues woven in. I suspect I am not alone in this issue.
    This is the second time I have shelled out good money to sellers on this forum for firearms with serious hidden flaws. I have bought other firearms on NWFA that had undisclosed flaws that I was able to identify and repair myself. In all of these cases I would have tried to negotiate a different price. Also, I have had some excellent experiences with other members on other transactions.
    I recently purchased a very nice looking SA 9mm 1911 for a fair price. The seller presented the pistol as unfired and NIB. During the transaction I noted the barrel and feed ramp were visibly fouled. Seller contended that he had bought it new and never fired it. At home I disassembled and cleaned it and discovered what I thought was a flaw in the rifling. It looked like the machinery had hiccupped and left a ring of metal unrifled. Springfield furnished a shipping label and off it went. Turns out, that ring of metal was the remains of a bullet that had been too large for the pistol and the barrel was bulged and had to be replaced. The SA tech expressed some skepticism about my stating I had not fired it. Since the heavy stainless match barrels and slides of the Springfield RO 9mm are hand fitted, the slide may have to be replaced as well. The repairs are going to be half what I paid for the pistol.
    About two years ago, I agreed to pay a seller a good price for a Kimber Raptor. The day we were supposed to meet, seller changed the location of the meet, and over the course of the evening, Seller called and changed the time later and later. When we met it was dark and raining. Seller was with his wife and kids. They were in a hurry to go into the restaurant and seller was in a hurry to join them. My hand was injured at the time and I had to have the seller lock the slide back so I could look at it. He also denied having fired the pistol since he had picked it up from another forum member. That pistol also had not been cleaned since having been fired. At home, in the light, I discovered the idiot mark was through the bluing, the barrel was hopelessly pitted, the trigger was set so light it was dangerous, and the hammer would release without depressing the grip safety. The Kimber tech said someone had done a back-yard mechanic number on it and modified the trigger and grip safety. So, with new barrel, new grip safety and trigger assembly, and new springs throughout, as well as the cost of shipping and the extra shipping fee by FedEx because it was a firearm, I was out about half of the original price for repairs. I am into that Kimber for more than MSRP!
    So what are all these issues?
    Sellers, please be honest about the condition of what you are selling. Buyers, feel ok about asking lots of questions like: when did you last shoot it; have you cleaned it since; how long have you had it; how many rounds through it; factory or reloads; how many other owners have there been; have there been problems with the gun; any repair history; why are you selling it. Because once you drive away with it, if it’s junk, you own it.
    Also, Both Kimber and Springfield do good work, but it’s not cheap.
    Also, if the seller changes times or location, or is vague about the answers to your questions, these are red flags. There are lots of great deals. Feel free to walk away. A member here recently wrote that he had bed feelings about a seller that changed his mind on the deal. Times used to be that a man’s word was his honor. I guess times have changed. A deal isn’t done until money changes hands and parties go on their way. So buyers, if it doesn’t feel 100%, walk away. Thanks….FortRock :s0036:
     
  2. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Sounds like you should only buy new firearms from gun stores, with the luck you've been having lately with used guns.
     
  3. toys in the toybox

    toys in the toybox Tenino Member

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    And this is why feedback section exists....use it! I would allow the seller a chance to buy back or make right but it would have to happen in short order, otherwise be kind and let the rest of us know. This is for everybodies benefit and hopefully keep the riff raff out
     
    Mongo1, dwaineshort, Hook686 and 8 others like this.
  4. Sgt Nambu

    Sgt Nambu Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    That sucks, this level of dishonesty is simple theft! I've been fortunate to have dealt with honorable people on this site. Oh, bring a bore light next time, might help! Good luck! SRG
     
  5. gigatexal

    gigatexal Portland, Oregon Member

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    we should get a heatware.org style feedback system going for buyers and sellers
     
  6. NoFlinch

    NoFlinch In a van down by the river Owner of Cocaine addicted dog.

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    If you have been RIPPED OFF "intentionally", you should let everyone know WHO ripped you if they don't make it right.

    Just as I let everyone know that a builder, Curt Carney, AKA The Irish Fisherman", who lives in Athol, ID literally went through every inch of my brothers house when he died.

    Curt got multiple guns, valuable art, hidden money, etc.
    I know, because I lived there for a year, and my Bro. showed me.
    Cops; "Without proof......."
    He is a crook. I try to let others know.

    Karma can be a Batch, but I HATE BLATANT dishonesty.
     
    BoonDocks36 likes this.
  7. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    We all run into thieves who lie to us about their guns when they sell them. I bought a ruger 22 auto from a guy at a show. Testing the safety it didn't work so I asked him what's up with it. He said it always worked for him so it must be real stiff.

    Got it to a gunsmith and he told me the safety never worked from the factory and he charged me $40 to fix it. There are a lot of liars out there and even if you know guns real well things get past you. Haggle for a better price, if it is used its probably is being sold due to problems.
     
  8. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    That's a major bummer - sorry you've had those issues. I like to think that forum members are pretty honest folks, particularly when dealing with other forum members, simply because feedback could kill any further transactions. I've had numerous dealings with folks on the forum both as a buyer and a seller, and so far, no bad results either way. Generally, if I'm contacted by a forum member for a transaction, I check their ratings first, and if they've got at least a half-dozen or so positive with no negative, I feel pretty good about meeting them.

    What does bug me though is when I finish the transaction (whether buying or selling), I ask if they're happy and mention we should both leave each other positive feedback - when I get back to the computer, I do my part, and about 50% of the time, they don't bother to return the favor, even though they said they would. It's frustrating when you want to build up that rating but they won't even take the 2 minutes to fill in the form. It makes me tempted to not post for them until they post first. That's my mini-rant.
     
    Joe13 likes this.
  9. whiskeybill

    whiskeybill Battle Ground, WA Well-Known Member

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    Some sellers just won't be honest. If a seller is advertising a gun as NIB and unfired, and you see fouling on it, that is the first lie. It already is a dishonest deal, walk away from it. An honest seller will allow you a short period of time to have a gunsmith of your choosing inspect it before any money changes hands. If they don't want to do that, walk away. I'm not just preaching here. We all want to trust our fellow shooters, but when I was a younger guy getting into firearms, I was trusting and burned a time or two myself. It's real easy for me to walk away from a "Deal" these days! Keep in mind that when you do buy a used firearm from ANYONE, if it is functioning when you buy it, and then fails at some point afterwards, it's on you. Used guns do have the tail light warranty, and nothing more. Some sellers would possibly help you out because they have a conscience, but they don't have to.

    I am not sure how this forum handles this, but other forums such as "CastBoolits.com" have a "Wall of Shame". If a member gets the raw deal, an administrator or moderator will attempt to arbitrate and get the offending party to make it right. If there was indeed wrongdoing, and the offending party refuses to make it right, then they are posted on the aforementioned "Wall of Shame". This isn't a star rating system. These guys are identified as coyotes and the reason given. Keep in mind that there are "Drifters" who go from forum to forum, changing handles, that do nothing but lie, cheat & steal. A sad fact of life, even among shooters.
     
    Mongo1 likes this.
  10. Mikej

    Mikej Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    [QUOTE="whiskeybill, post:

    I am not sure how this forum handles this, but other forums such as "CastBoolits.com" have a "Wall of Shame". If a member gets the raw deal, an administrator or moderator will attempt to arbitrate and get the offending party to make it right. If there was indeed wrongdoing, and the offending party refuses to make it right, then they are posted on the aforementioned "Wall of Shame". This isn't a star rating system. These guys are identified as coyotes and the reason given. Keep in mind that there are "Drifters" who go from forum to forum, changing handles, that do nothing but lie, cheat & steal. A sad fact of life, even among shooters.[/QUOTE]

    There is a "Wall of Shame" of sorts here. I stumble on it from time to time but don't know how to get there! It's on the right side of the page when I do find it. I lists the most untrustworthy according to how many negative feed backs they've received.
     
  11. whiskeybill

    whiskeybill Battle Ground, WA Well-Known Member

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    There is a "Wall of Shame" of sorts here. I stumble on it from time to time but don't know how to get there! It's on the right side of the page when I do find it. I lists the most untrustworthy according to how many negative feed backs they've received.[/QUOTE]

    The "Wall of Shame" at CastBoolits is a regular forum category. None but moderators and administrators can post there, but everyone can read it. There are buyer and seller feedback ratings, and that is easy to find as well.
     
  12. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    There is a way to see who isn't trusted a a trader here. Click on anyone's feed back and the page that pops up list who is good and who isnt.o_O
     
    Norm0931, Blitzkrieg and Joe13 like this.
  13. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Knock on wood... I've had excellent dealings with everyone here. I knew what I was buying though and didn't run into all of the OP's issues.

    Just goes to show there are bad eggs in every dozen.
     
    etrain16 likes this.
  14. MarkAd

    MarkAd Port Orchard Well-Known Member

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    "if it is used its probably is being sold due to problems."
    JustJim - That statement is a load of crap.
    You just said to never buy a used gun from you.
     
    imandrew18, OcelotZ3 and mjbskwim like this.
  15. Hawaiian

    Hawaiian Tigard Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Most used guns are in good shape. I have a few that I am thinking of selling and there is nothing wrong with them, they work like they should. I just don't shoot them anymore. However, I have never bought a used gun as I could get unlucky and end up with someone else's problem. I would rather pay a few extra bucks and buy new. I would buy used from someone I know, but probably not from a stranger. YMMV
     
    Hook686 likes this.
  16. clearconscience

    clearconscience Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Please believe if someone on this forum does this to me I'm putting you on blast a over this forum.
    Because a lot of guys buy and sell on here all the time and some knowly sell junk or firearms they "modified" themselves.
    If I have even a knick in something I disclose it. I believe a man is only as good as his word and I sure don't want anybody saying or thinking I have a lack of integrity.
    I bought and sold a lot of stuff on here and never had a bad experience, had one on armlist and I sure mentioned so on here even though the gentleman made it right.
    Especially if someone sells you something unsafe. If that you bought that kimber I would have made that guy give me my money back or I would have went to the ATF, Cops, lawyers all of the above.
     
    Nightshade likes this.
  17. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    Look real close at my feedback and you will find I sell damn few guns.:D

    Plus if you see how often I have bought guns you might figure I have bought a few clunkers. How many have you bought?

    This site is good to buy off of because of the feedback. The majority of what I have bought here has been good but there are other sites to buy stuff from and some have no feed back.

    Plus, the few guns I have sold I offer to take them to the ARPC range and let them try before they buy. Some take me up on it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2014
  18. mikeybuck

    mikeybuck Clark county Active Member

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    Can't always go off the rating system... I've bought close to a dozen guns on here, most in the $400-600 range, plus traded a few, and picked up ammo, holsters, etc.
    Every time has been a positive experience.
    Have yet to get a single rating, so who knows if I've done good or not.
     
  19. clearconscience

    clearconscience Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    I like the rating system, but people need to be honest and make things right if wronged. And anyone knowing selling an unsafe firearm should be turned into the authorities.
    Esoecially of they are the ones that made it unsafe boogering it up
     
  20. usagi

    usagi Redmond Well-Known Member

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    never be in a hurry to buy a gun.