Tracking ammo shipments & buyers? EVERYWHERE.

[tkdguy]

I just went to make an ammo purchase at SGAmmo, like I have done many times before. However, this time I was met with this at checkout, for ammo!
They require you read & check the box, or no ammo!

Purchasing requirements: Ammunition buyer must be over the age of 21 years to purchase pistol ammo, 18 years for rifle ammo, and never have been convicted of a felony or adjudicated as mentally defective or been committed to a mental institution. All state, local and federal laws apply. By placing an order on this website you certify that you can legally purchase, receive and own ammunition. Please do not attempt purchase if you are prohibited from buying the item in your area.
The Gun Control Act (GCA), codified at 18 U.S.C. 922(g), makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess ammunition, to include any person:

• convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
• who is a fugitive from justice;
• who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act, codified at 21 U.S.C. § 802);
• who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
• who is an illegal alien or, except as provided in 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2), has been admitted to the U.S. under a nonimmigrant visa;
• who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
• who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;
• who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or
• who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence

Thoughts?

I think they are covering their behind.

 

[lucusloc]

Going to third (fourth? Fifth?) the notion that this is just legal CYA BS to keep them out of trouble with anti-gun type lawyers. This basically offloads (in theory) the legal liability of Prohibited Persons using their service to buy ammo. If one does they can say that that person was made fully aware that such an act is illegal by federal law, and it is that person who bears sole responsibility for that action, they retain no liability for such illegal actions yadda yadda yadda.

I see nothing in here about tracking or retaining records for the feds, though I am sure they must keep something that would allow tracking as most electronic sales have some kind of legal retention attached to them, and all the feds need to ID a specific customer is the CCN. Even if SGA uses a third party payment processor, the feds can still request receipt data and corollate that with the sales data from the other company. Really we all need to remember that pretty much *anything* we do online can be tracked in some fashion or other. You can mitigate that to a degree for transactions that never come back to you (like browsing a site) but you cannot mitigate it *at all* for things that have to come back to you IRL, like shipping something to your address. This disclaimer does nothing to change that.

 

[Xmark1]

Going to third (fourth? Fifth?) the notion that this is just legal CYA BS to keep them out of trouble with anti-gun type lawyers. This basically offloads (in theory) the legal liability of Prohibited Persons using their service to buy ammo. If one does they can say that that person was made fully aware that such an act is illegal by federal law, and it is that person who bears sole responsibility for that action, they retain no liability for such illegal actions yadda yadda yadda.

I see nothing in here about tracking or retaining records for the feds, though I am sure they must keep something that would allow tracking as most electronic sales have some kind of legal retention attached to them, and all the feds need to ID a specific customer is the CCN. Even if SGA uses a third party payment processor, the feds can still request receipt data and corollate that with the sales data from the other company. Really we all need to remember that pretty much *anything* we do online can be tracked in some fashion or other. You can mitigate that to a degree for transactions that never come back to you (like browsing a site) but you cannot mitigate it *at all* for things that have to come back to you IRL, like shipping something to your address. This disclaimer does nothing to change that.

 

[lucusloc]

View attachment 1484368

Yeah, I like cash. Try getting an online retailer to take it though. Maybe send them a picture?

I know a lot of people say "only buy local", but that can be pretty restrictive too. It works well enough for common loads, but the moment you go off the beaten path "just buy local" gets a lot more unlikely. Hell, I tried to find local places for 6.5 Grendel just a few months ago with zero luck. Had to go online to find anything for that cartridge.

And if your answer to that is "roll your own" you do have to start *somewhere*. Or do we next do "stamp your own brass, swage your own bullets, grind your own dies"? I would *love* to do all that, but at some point we have to recognize that no single person can do everything and we do actually need to engage in commerce to actually get anything done.

Eventually the "only cash" options just run out and we are faced with the reality that our overly intrusive government likes to ignore constitutional restrictions on what they can look at. Until we are all ready to go revolutionary war 2.0 this is unlikely to change.

 

[RobMa]

View attachment 1484368

Which is exactly why they want to get rid of cash and go to a digital currency...

 

[Longwalkhome]

Your credit card company tracks every purchase you make and reports it under the Patriot act to the government.

My first thought on the waiver is that it's similar to when I bought my last gun. There was something you sign that you are not buying for resale. I am pretty sure they are going to come down hard on buying and selling.

 

[Longwalkhome]

Just thinking out loud, if you want to move lower on the list of the boogermen then join a gun club. That might get them to hassle others first when you have a use for the ammo you buy.

However the next election will be the biggest one in your lifetime..

 

[xtratoy]

Which is exactly why they want to get rid of cash and go to a digital currency...

Exactly! Total control.

 

[monkeybutler]

And now we once again drift into conspiracy theories….

 

[bradsteen]

This is just a private business doing what it can to cover its bases legally. Probably a recent recommendation from their lawyers to further insulate them from liability if the products they sell are misused. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[lucusloc]

And now we once again drift into conspiracy theories….

My day job is cyber security in the financial sector. I assure you nothing about "full digital currency" is a conspiracy theory. Indeed, pretty much everything said is a bedrock principle of modern financial theory. And it is deeper than just "the government wants to know so they can control you", though that is not a bad thing to take notice of. Banks hate cash too, because cash it inherently unpredictable due to its untraceable nature. Banks use the data from your purchasing habits to fund investments, to move money to where they anticipate need before that need arises and to tailor offerings that will nudge future behavior. The more money you move through their systems the more data they will have on you and the better their models of financial system will be. When you take some of that money out as cash, those transactions become opaque to them and their models start to break down.

Now of course the banks will argue that those models are supper good things, because they fuel the more rapid growth of wealth, and in theory that benefits everyone. But the same argument can be made for a nearly omniscient and omnipotent dictator. If they are 100% moral and uncorruptable then sure, they probably could actually improve the lives of everyone they lord over. But no one thinks that level of power is actually uncorruptable, and indeed we have quite a bit of evidence to suggest that such level of power are inherently corruptable by their very nature. It is not a matter of IF such systems will be used against people, but of how and when. Canada already gave us a notable recent example, but there are many, many more to find for anyone who cares to look. Everything from blatant government abuse against entire demographics to smaller things like banks encouraging certain behaviors from individual clients.

Like I said, I do very much like cash. But the downfall of cash is its inherent geographic limitations. Digital currency means I can purchase goods and services from anyone anywhere. This means better goods and services are available to me on a moments notice. If I want to deal in only cash I am basically limited only to people I can stand in a room with, and those good and services will only be available while they want to stand there in that room. It is a transactional medium that is inherently limited because of that fact.

Now, what I would love is some globally transactional medium that is not monitored up the wazoo, but I have little hope of finding a good solution to that. I have yet to be convinced that "blockchain" type currency actually fills that role to any significant degree, and its pitiful adoption rate amongst the more mainstream service providers makes its utility even more limited than cash, even if that limitation is not geographically bound.

Basically what I am saying is that no matter what financial medium you choose you will be damned in some way or another. Pick your poison, but do wo with your eyes open so you can make the choice that is minimally damaging to yourself.

 

[ma96782]

Did some of you see the part where.......?
Well, as a WA resident........they wanted me to download a copy of my ID (WA State Driver's Lic).

Whatever......I didn't complete the purchase. Actually, it's more to do about my objection to getting taxed close to 10%. Inslee can pound sand.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Xmark1]

And now we once again drift into conspiracy theories….

Wake up & smell the coffee. This is not conspiracy theory.

 

[Xmark1]

This is just a private business doing what it can to cover its bases legally. Probably a recent recommendation from their lawyers to further insulate them from liability if the products they sell are misused. Nothing more, nothing less.

I disagree. It's tasks me! And that is something less than a week before!

If you have a dog on a chain and remove just one chain link every day, the dog will not notice at first. But when the chain starts to become noticeably short, it's too late.

Do not minimize a real problem.

 

[monkeybutler]

Wake up & smell the coffee. This is not conspiracy theory.

Oh right 'cause they are "Tracking ammo shipments & buyers? EVERYWHERE" and it is being done for "total control."

Everywhere. Total control.

All in response to a fairly standard CYA purchase declaration added to a single vendor's order form.

wake up and smell your own bubblegum.

 

[msgriff]

Although the OP is from Oregon, Washington SB 5078 is due to take effect in a couple months, which will hold manufacturers, distributors, vendors and retailers liable if their firearm or associated product (ammo) is used illegally. This law is your typical leftist dogma of no personal responsibility and it's always the gun or someone else's fault. Manufacturers, distributors and vendors will probably start including similar acknowledgement requirements everywhere, like the "Can Cause Cancer" labels for Kalifornia.

 

[bradsteen]

I disagree. It's tasks me! And that is something less than a week before!

If you have a dog on a chain and remove just one chain link every day, the dog will not notice at first. But when the chain starts to become noticeably short, it's too late.

Do not minimize a real problem.

You said you received a popup box when checking out on their website that you hadn't seen before. The popup requires you to acknowledge your awareness of existing laws regarding ammunition. So what?

When you install software on a computer you also have to click "yes, I understand" and agree to a litany of terms and conditions. When you visit some websites, same thing. In fact, on most gun-related websites you have to acknowledge that you're over the age of 18 in order to get access. When you buy a car, sign up for a membership program, join a gym... asking someone to acknowledge terms and conditions or to validate their legal eligibility for use of a good or service is absolutely commonplace.

I guess I'm just not understanding the problem. Is the issue that you had to click "yes, I understand"? Is the issue that the reminder exists in the first place? Help me out here - I'm just not getting why you're upset about it.

 

[Xmark1]

You said you received a popup box when checking out on their website that you hadn't seen before. The popup requires you to acknowledge your awareness of existing laws regarding ammunition. So what?

When you install software on a computer you also have to click "yes, I understand" and agree to a litany of terms and conditions. When you visit some websites, same thing. In fact, on most gun-related websites you have to acknowledge that you're over the age of 18 in order to get access. When you buy a car, sign up for a membership program, join a gym... asking someone to acknowledge terms and conditions or to validate their legal eligibility for use of a good or service is absolutely commonplace.

I guess I'm just not understanding the problem. Is the issue that you had to click "yes, I understand"? Is the issue that the reminder exists in the first place? Help me out here - I'm just not getting why you're upset about it.

The issue is that the check box and dialog was not there the last several times I ordered ammo from them recently.

 

[monkeybutler]

Few check boxes are worth a tantrum over.

 

[Member 53328]

Yes! More temper tantrums. The sounding board of the internet.