Broken record time; mag/loadout capacity

[The Heretic]

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[American123]

So the learning lesson is to shoot every attacker in the brain stem.

Edit: and wannabe authoritarians suck

 

[nammac]

So the learning lesson is to shoot every attacker in the brain stem.

Edit: and wannabe authoritarians suck

Should always practice snot locker shots…

Mozambique 'em until the threat terminates…

 

[American123]

Should always practice snot locker shots…

Mozambique 'em until the threat terminates…

Yep - doesn't matter what kind of armor they are wearing, or drugs they are on.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[peteNW503]

I feel like this is common knowledge. Better to have it and not need it; then to need it and not have it! What he should have said is those states that you can only carry 10 rounds you should consider getting a bigger caliber than 9! If you only get 10 rounds .45ACP or 10MM sounds like a good place to start hell even 357 Sig if it wasn't so damn expensive!

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Something to consider here....

The bad guy , might not present a classic form and just wait to be shot...like when shooting at practice targets.

In real life you need to take the shot that is is offered...
Which may not be the chest , center mass , head , face or any other preferred shot placement area.
A self defense shooting will take however many shots that is needed to stop the threat.

Please note that I am not arguing over what is best as in head , chest or whatnot...
It is indeed wise to practice shooting at those areas.
I am saying that when you have to shoot for real...chances are the bad guy wants to live as much as you do.
And will probably not be obliging enough to present you a good decent shot.
Be prepared to take a difficult shot in a different area from where you have practiced.
Andy

 

[The Heretic]

I feel like this is common knowledge. Better to have it and not need it; then to need it and not have it! What he should have said is those states that you can only carry 10 rounds you should consider getting a bigger caliber than 9! If you only get 10 rounds .45ACP or 10MM sounds like a good place to start hell even 357 Sig if it wasn't so damn expensive!

Looking at the current performance of premium ammo these days, I don't see a lot of difference in penetration in gel, between 9mm, .40 or .45 ACP. There is not a lot of difference in expanded diameter either. I consider gel to be a decent simulator of penetration - even sans things like muscle or bones.

So for me, 9mm (or .40 for that matter - at least IME in my SIGs), lower recoil than .45/10mm makes it easier to get follow up shots on target. With > 10 rd cap mags, I get more rounds with 9mm than .40 or .45 - so there is that.

Where I feel that .40/.45/10mm does better than 9mm, is with projectiles of more mass, especially projectiles that have controlled or no expansion - like if you expected you might to have to deal with a bear in the woods. Or if you are a LEO and need to deal with barriers like windshield glass or car bodies.

 

[salmon creek gary]

Something to consider here....

The bad guy , might not present a classic form and just wait to be shot...like when shooting at practice targets.

In real life you need to take the shot that is is offered...
Which may not be the chest , center mass , head , face or any other preferred shot placement area.
A self defense shooting will take however many shots that is needed to stop the threat.

Please note that I am not arguing over what it best as in head , chest or whatnot...
It is indeed wise to practice shooting at those areas.
I am saying that when you have to shoot for real...chances are the bad guy wants to live as much as you do.
And will probably not be obliging enough to present you a good decent shot.
Be prepared to take a difficult shot in a different area from where you have practiced.
Andy

Not to forget your own adrenaline-fueled gymnastics to avoid showing a slow-moving, classic target profile to the bad guy (as he is more likely than you to be firing "armor piercing bullets" with an "illegal fully-automatic high-powered weapon of war" fed by "illegal high capacity magazines" because . . . criminal).

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Not to forget your own adrenaline-fueled gymnastics to avoid showing a slow-moving, classic target profile to the bad guy (as he is more likely than you to be firing "armor piercing bullets" with an "illegal fully-automatic high-powered weapon of war" fed by "illegal high capacity magazines" because . . . criminal).

Yep...
It's all fun and games ...till they start shooting back...

That said...
Having some experience in such matters...
Often there are many more misses than hits.
Granted this was during my combat tours...and not the "average" self defense shooting.
Andy

 

[The Heretic]

A self defense shooting will take however many shots that is needed to stop the threat.

How many rounds do I need?

All of them

 

[Ben B.]

Yep...
It's all fun and games ...till they start shooting back...

That said...
Having some experience in such matters...
Often there are many more misses than hits.
Granted this was during my combat tours...and not the "average" self defense shooting.
Andy

No kidding, when they are moving and shooting and hiding and generally not obliging with a nice squared-up target presentation. I'm curious about how often you guys had a clean sight picture in the jungles vs, say, hosing down your area or trying to keep their heads down?

I still laugh at Robin Williams talking about how hard it is to find a VC named Charlie, and just walking around asking if their name is Charlie and if they say yes, we shoot them.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I'm curious about how often you guys had a clean sight picture in the jungles vs, say, hosing down your area or trying to keep their heads down?

Suppressing fire was often done ....
So the assaulting unit could close in and engage the enemy , without taking as much enemy fire.

As for a clean sight picture...depends...
I often had a clean sight picture....just not always the sight picture of say a torso / center mass....
Many times it was a leg , azz , arm , foot , top of the head , etc.....
That said...
It was a different matter entirely when I was using my M21.
Andy

 

[Ben B.]

Thank you, sir.

 

[solv3nt]

It was a different matter entirely when I was using my M21.
Andy

They didn't let you walk the jungle with your Hawken?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

They didn't let you walk the jungle with your Hawken?

Welcome the jungle ...
We got fun and games....
The Hawken is the rifle which Andy cares to name....
Andy

 

[SonicBlue03]

Looking at the current performance of premium ammo these days, I don't see a lot of difference in penetration in gel, between 9mm, .40 or .45 ACP. There is not a lot of difference in expanded diameter either. I consider gel to be a decent simulator of penetration - even sans things like muscle or bones.

So for me, 9mm (or .40 for that matter - at least IME in my SIGs), lower recoil than .45/10mm makes it easier to get follow up shots on target. With > 10 rd cap mags, I get more rounds with 9mm than .40 or .45 - so there is that.

Where I feel that .40/.45/10mm does better than 9mm, is with projectiles of more mass, especially projectiles that have controlled or no expansion - like if you expected you might to have to deal with a bear in the woods. Or if you are a LEO and need to deal with barriers like windshield glass or car bodies.

I was fully in the .40 camp in the mid 90's and stayed there until probably the past half dozen years when I started to pay attention to those very same tests. I haven't completely re-platformed; while keeping a couple common calibers makes sense from a management perspective, I'm a hoarder and don't mind having a lot of platforms and calibers. But I have mainly moved to 9mm for carry during most months and will oscillate back to .40 in the colder months when I layer up. Because why not? And I already own them/have carried them for years anyway.

 

[The Heretic]

I was fully in the .40 camp in the mid 90's and stayed there until probably the past half dozen years when I started to pay attention to those very same tests. I haven't completely re-platformed; while keeping a couple common calibers makes sense from a management perspective, I'm a hoarder and don't mind having a lot of platforms and calibers. But I have mainly moved to 9mm for carry during most months and will oscillate back to .40 in the colder months when I layer up. Because why not? And I already own them/have carried them for years anyway.

My 226s & Mk25 vacillate between .40 & 9mm - they gain an ounce or two when I put the .40 slide/barrel on them.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[Nosferatu]

Six is the correct number.