Poll: Best 7.62x51 Battle Rifle - You Can Only Have One - Poll

[pigiron]

Action would dictate equipment. The .223 and the AR are great, but obviously the military employs multiple rifles and multiple calibers for a reason.

Well don't let me get in your way of stocking an adequate arsenal of grenade launchers and mortars, along with medium and heavy machine guns. Just in case your quartermaster doesn't have all that many on hand when the revolution comes you may very well want to follow my advice.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Well don't let me get in your way of stocking an adequate arsenal of grenade launchers and mortars, along with medium and heavy machine guns. Just in case your quartermaster doesn't have all that many on hand when the revolution comes you may very well want to follow my advice.

Dont forget also the legions of support staff to ensure enough supplies for each warfighter and for each vehicle. Theres a reason why you see SF Gun trucks loaded down with supplies. Like literally 10s of ammo cans, lots of fuel, plus several bags full of gear... and thats just for a 4-6 man group on one mission.
Really, I am a believer that we would need a community to support the active militias/et cetera.. so it makes sense to use common weapons like the AR15s and AK47s... maybe also the 308s/7.62x51 especially in the hunting rifle formats (AR10s, bolt guns, and the liek) but you definitely will need competent gunsmiths and a supply of parts... which in the end.. might indeed be the AR series as opposed to old M1s and M1As unless you have a ready source for their parts in your community.

 

[pigiron]

Dont forget also the legions of support staff to ensure enough supplies for each warfighter and for each vehicle. Theres a reason why you see SF Gun trucks loaded down with supplies. Like literally 10s of ammo cans, lots of fuel, plus several bags full of gear... and thats just for a 4-6 man group on one mission.
Really, I am a believer that we would need a community to support the active militias/et cetera.. so it makes sense to use common weapons like the AR15s and AK47s... maybe also the 308s/7.62x51 especially in the hunting rifle formats (AR10s, bolt guns, and the liek) but you definitely will need competent gunsmiths and a supply of parts... which in the end.. might indeed be the AR series as opposed to old M1s and M1As unless you have a ready source for their parts in your community.

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Your rump army is still in need of tanks, artillery, and air support plus a whole lot of trucks to supply fuel, ammo, food and water in addition to the industrial base of mines, foundries, farms, and factories to actually build and grow this stuff. Oh, where will it ever end? And here I thought this thread was just about which .30 caliber battle rifle people think they need. (Again, the answer is to use what the Army uses but go ahead and get a .308 if you must.)

 

[CamoDeafie]

Yup. Theres just so much support needed for whatever needs to be done against a standing army. On the other hand there is something to be said for guerilla tactics and systems but that still require a means of support and a means of continuing the support once the armies/military takes over the primary production facilities and ancillary systems. We know there are privately owned tanks and aircraft but the majority of them do not have the armaments or functioning weaponry unfortunately.. as well as a very limited spares parts supply for whatever... most of which are in other countries.

 

[pigiron]

Yup. Theres just so much support needed for whatever needs to be done against a standing army. On the other hand there is something to be said for guerilla tactics and systems but that still require a means of support and a means of continuing the support once the armies/military takes over the primary production facilities and ancillary systems. We know there are privately owned tanks and aircraft but the majority of them do not have the armaments or functioning weaponry unfortunately.. as well as a very limited spares parts supply for whatever... most of which are in other countries.

Just exactly which standing army are you talking about fighting against? Please be specific especially in regards to the West Coast.

 

[CamoDeafie]

The Oregon State Police... (see Malheur standoff and murder of LaVoy Finicum)... the National Guard.... FBI... if anyone seriously think that police dont have access to military equipment... they need only look at the Pentagons 1033 program as well as the recent events of the Dakota Access Pipeline (DAPL) to see just what sort of tactics and equipment the civilian police forces are acquiring and utilizing.. do not think that certain departments wont get M1 Abrams and the like.. they already use MRAP/MRATVs and Hummvees... also there is the matter of National Guard.. yes I know technically the modern military is not "standing armies" like proscribed in the constitution but the fact of the matter remains.. if people can stay in military service for 30 years; its a standing military regardless of what its called.

 

[pigiron]

The Oregon State Police... (see Malheur standoff and murder of LaVoy Finicum)... the National Guard.... FBI... if anyone seriously think that police dont have access to military equipment... they need only look at the Pentagons 1033 program as well as the recent events of the Dakota Access Pipeline (DAPL) to see just what sort of tactics and equipment the civilian police forces are acquiring and utilizing.. do not think that certain departments wont get M1 Abrams and the like.. they already use MRAP/MRATVs and Hummvees... also there is the matter of National Guard.. yes I know technically the modern military is not "standing armies" like proscribed in the constitution but the fact of the matter remains.. if people can stay in military service for 30 years; its a standing military regardless of what its called.

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Yes, I know. And in the case of the federal government going bankrupt the standing army aka "militia" will consist of US Army troops, National Guardsmen, the police, and combat veterans and other able bodied men under 45 years of age. They will be under the authority of the state governors and will secure the power plants, farms, and other means of production. People will be drafted to work the fields and factories and resistors will be shot. Whatever else do you think will happen?

 

[Boboclown]

Well don't let me get in your way of stocking an adequate arsenal of grenade launchers

Just get rifles that have their own grenade launchers.

 

[pigiron]

Just get rifles that have their own grenade launchers.

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If you really want to play with all that gear without having to pay for ammo or break the law why don't you just enlist in the infantry. Maybe you will get sent to Syria or Helmand province and you can try that stuff out on real human targets.

 

[Boboclown]

Well, if we want to be serious here (the smiley and my namesake should be a hint when I'm joking) I'll break down my reply to the post in points.
1. Rifle grenades aren't used by our military, militias use them more often than militaries do. They were phased out and replaced by dedicated grenade launchers which have significantly less recoil. So there's no playing with those.
2. 11B was the goal AFTER college, so no I'm not doing it anytime soon.
3. Its more for collection, and hunting. The rifles having grenade launchers is nothing but mere happenstance, and are correct for the rifles (only non correct thing to be done is a small scope as that's reversible).

 

[pigiron]

Well, if we want to be serious here (the smiley and my namesake should be a hint when I'm joking) I'll break down my reply to the post in points.
1. Rifle grenades aren't used by our military, militias use them more often than militaries do. They were phased out and replaced by dedicated grenade launchers which have significantly less recoil. So there's no playing with those.
2. 11B was the goal AFTER college, so no I'm not doing it anytime soon.
3. Its more for collection, and hunting. The rifles having grenade launchers is nothing but mere happenstance, and are correct for the rifles (only non correct thing to be done is a small scope as that's reversible).

Re point #1: Indeed, they were obsolete when I was serving back in the 1960's. We had them in training but nobody including the instructors wanted to bubblegum with rifle grenades or bazookas as they were so dangerous. We had switched over to the now obsolete M-79s and LAWs back then.

 

[Boboclown]

Well, they're not completely obsolete.

They're useful for militias that can actually get them. Mostly because they aren't able to get the latest equipment either. If they could then they'd be completely obsolete!

Disclaimer for those watching the video that never fired a rifle grenade, he does it off the ground instead of his shoulder for a reason!

 

[Camelfilter]

Not to fight the US military for sure, nor any authorized legitimate authority (police/sherif).

But in a situation without rule of law, I would imagine having a .308/7.62 semiautomatic rifle would be a distinct advantage over a group of bad actors with lower caliber arms.

I have zero illusions of being in, nor surviving a firefight. However, from a theoretical standpoint .308/7.62 does give distinct advantages. Particularly if you would be able to shoot and scoot to live another day.

 

[American123]

Not to fight the US military for sure, nor any authorized legitimate authority (police/sherif).

But in a situation without rule of law, I would imagine having a .308/7.62 semiautomatic rifle would be a distinct advantage over a group of bad actors with lower caliber arms.

I have zero illusions of being in, nor surviving a firefight. However, from a theoretical standpoint .308/7.62 does give distinct advantages. Particularly if you would be able to shoot and scoot to live another day.

Precisely.

Looks at effective guerrila fighters. They are not engaging in firefights where the enemy has superiority in firepower and potentially manpower.

They are maintaining distance, surprising the enemy and attempting 1 or more accurate shots on target before running away and hiding to live and repeat the process again another day.

The reason the military incorporated .308 back into the arsenal in the M14 isn't because the .223 and M4 is not a capable firearm in many areas, it is because it is a firearm and cartridge that has its limitations and is not the best rifle for all situations. (Same can be said about any rifle and cartridge)

Talking about grenades and rocket launchers is nonsense. Fact of the matter is, a .308 in a accurate rifle will be a better performer at distance than a .223. If that weren't the case then the military wouldn't have brought .308 back into the arsenal with the M14.

But once again, engagement distances dictate load out, if we are engaging targets 600+ yards a bolt gun in an appropriate caliber would likely be the best choice. If we are engaging targets inside an apartment building with engagement distance no greater than 40ft a semi auto shotgun or a Tavor with a red dot sight would likely be the best choice

If we are engaging targets 50-600 yards I would consider that to be the sweet spot of any semi auto carbine with the range diminishing depending on the shooting skill of the shooter and the inherent accuracy of the platform.

Another thing to consider is how many people actually know how to 'dope' for distance compared to the cartridge they are using and the zero they have on their rifle.

I would hypothesize most people who own guns have never shot past 200 yards and furthermore don't even know what their trajectory is if they were to even try it. There is a lot of drop that occurs the further out you go and unless you know what the drop table looks like and can estimate the range, hitting targets at distance would be extremely difficult.

I also don't have any illusions of being involved in a firefight and winning because of some magic weapon or skill I possess, but I do acknowledge the fact that generally the person who is able to put accurate shots on target first usually wins, and if I am able to engage a target effectively sooner than they can effectively shoot back, I have an inherent advantage.

Which is why in a situation where most people are carrying around an AR or equivalent carbine chambered in .223. I may desire something that out matches the .223 in terms of effective range.

Anyway, back on topic!!!

All purpose .308 battle rifle... RFB or the AR10 with an appropriate scope/sight for the intended use for me please.

 

[Boboclown]

Off topic from the recent discussion, but is anyone else surprised that the FAL is still ahead?

 

[3MTA3]

Off topic from the recent discussion, but is anyone else surprised that the FAL is still ahead?

Not especially surprised it's ahead, but was surprised that it was so dominant in the beginning and it's still not even a race with the M1A still lagging behind. At one point the FAL had more votes than the M1A, G3, and AR-10 combined.

I thought it would be neck and neck between it and the M1A.

 

[Boboclown]

Not especially surprised it's ahead, but was surprised that it was so dominant in the beginning and it's still not even a race with the M1A still lagging behind. At one point the FAL had more votes than the M1A, G3, and AR-10 combined.

I thought it would be neck and neck between it and the M1A.

I expected the big 3 in general to be neck and neck. Now that the SCAR is on there, seems there'll be more competition in the poll in FN's favor.

 

[titsonritz]

Off topic from the recent discussion, but is anyone else surprised that the FAL is still ahead?

Not especially surprised it's ahead, but was surprised that it was so dominant in the beginning and it's still not even a race with the M1A still lagging behind. At one point the FAL had more votes than the M1A, G3, and AR-10 combined.

I thought it would be neck and neck between it and the M1A.

I'll help the M1A/M14 along since that is what I have. If I were to pick up another .308/7.62x51 it would be a high end AR setup as a precision rifle. If I were to pick up another "308 battle rifle" I'd go for a Galil ARM.

 

[Boboclown]

If the Galil didn't cost a lot I would have gotten one and voted for it.

But dollar for dollar, the big three are the ones that provide the value. FAL for ergonomics out the box, PTR-91 for accuracy out of box, and M14 for the classic American rifle (that you can tune for accuracy).

 

[titsonritz]

The reason I would choose a Galil over FAL or G3 type weapons is I prefer a similar manual of arms between my weapons. My primary long arms are ARs and AKs, an AR works like and AR whether it is 5.56 or 7.62, the M1A/M14 and Galil both operation like an AK.

I've seen people rip up with an AK then switch to a FAL and totally choke running the FAL because the operation is different and they would grab for the operating rod on the wrong side, never had a problem switching between my AK and M1A.