A morbid perspective on active shooter situations and saving lives

[Riot]

Oh they'll kill yer bubblegum. Blink. How far did you get trying to get to your magic rifle. oh yea.. not real far

The point is- the pistol is used to get away...its for close distance and not for trying to run down a dude with a rifle, a few mags and probably even has body armor on.

That's just tactics...but if I have to explain why a rifle is better than a pistol against an active shooter I guess I should have used smaller words and more pictures.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The point is- the pistol is used to get away...its for close distance and not for trying to run down a dude with a rifle, a few mags and probably even has body armor on.

That's just tactics...but if I have to explain why a rifle is better than a pistol against an active shooter I guess I should have used smaller words and more pictures.

Lol. Can you produce and deploy a rifle in a quarter of a second when it's all tucked into its safe ten miles away? Pictures indeed.
Oh and add. Do not presume to tell me what a pistol is for or what it is capable of. You Sir, are a joke.

 

[Ura-Ki]

The U.S. Military operates and trains our solders to use a rifle first and foremost! A Marine must qualify as a "Rifleman" or better. Pistol tactics are second to ones skills with a Fighting Rifle! You never see our forces moving against an enemy armed only with pistols do you? As stated many times here, A rifle IS the best tool for defense as well as offence. How ever, a pistol is far more practical for situations where a rifle can not be employed! Any one who makes the moral dedication to carry should also have made the moral election to train and educate them selves in the use of defensive tools so that they are able to use them effectively and can minimize collateral damage. A rifle is damn hard to conceal, but a pistol is easy, that's why there are so many of them available! In times when its practical to have a rifle available, then that is the very best tool to have! A shot gun can also be a good tool to have available! The point is, and has always been, to have a pistol only as a back up to a rifle!
I carry a Fighting Rifle!!!! I keep it close, and I can get to it most times when I may need it. I carry a pistol for the times when it might not be possible to get to my Fighting Rifle, or to buy my self time to get to my Fighting Rifle!

 

[tionico]

Penetration
Mag Capacity
Recoil Control
Accuracy

Where, exactly, do pistols "stack up" with rifles or excel above a rifle? Concealing? Mobility?

Pistols are notoriously horrible "man stoppers". You almost need to carry a Desert Eagle in .44 mag with a red-dot sight and extended mags for a pistol to "stack up" against a rifle.

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I've known skilled handgunners who can shoot to 4 MOA at any range... and ballistics prove that the .357 Magnum in a six inch barrelled revolver can indeed be accurately fired out to at least 200 yards. The only structure I have ever been inside that has that length clear is the airport terminal buildingin Inchon Korea, 1200 feet long, but it is curved and thus has no more than about 200 yards clear in a straight line.

I knew of a target shooter who could reliably place six rounds from such a revolver inside an eight inch circle at 200 yards, offhand. Time after time. I know the man who ended up with that revolver when this man passed on. HE nor I, can shoot it that well, but we both are frustrated by the FACT that the gun is capable. Even fifty yards is a long ways inside a building. A "shingle shot" at fifty yards should be a piece of cake for anyone with reasonable skills. If you NEED a rifle the range is such that you are not in immediate danger. That does not totally preclude a hostage or mass attack situation where a sniper sort os needed to end it. In taht case, no one need "rush in".. the shooter will almost certainly be so preoccupied with those within about fifty feet he will not even notice your presence at any signficant range. Danger to yourself will be minimal. Safety of others will certainly not be minimal,

 

[Ura-Ki]

I got news for ya, Even with body armor, a hit from any cal 9mm or better is going to hurt really bad! I have personally taken a hit to body armor from a 7.62x39 at close range, and I got knocked on my bubblegum! I got three cracked ribs and the wind knocked out of me! I was out of the fight for a full 10 min. That hit I am told was about the same as a .45 at point blank range! In an active shooter situation, any thing is better then nothing! I can make a carefully aimed shot of quite some distance while under stress, and I can do so with little risk of hitting some thing other then what I am aiming at! You have to fight off the effects of "fight or flight" and adrenaline kicking things up a few notches, but it can be done if needed! Training, training, and more training! When you can close your eyes while taking aim and open your eyes and the sites are dead on with the target, that's when you are ready to do something about an active shooter!

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Yeager said that, regardless of mismatch in fighter planes, when the dogfight happened the best Pilot would win. Imagine three terrorists with ARs vs Jerry Miculek with a .357 revolver. It would be over so quickly that you'd miss it if you blinked.

You have to try. And if you keep your head, your chances are not bad.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The U.S. Military operates and trains our solders to use a rifle first and foremost! A Marine must qualify as a "Rifleman" or better. Pistol tactics are second to ones skills with a Fighting Rifle! You never see our forces moving against an enemy armed only with pistols do you? As stated many times here, A rifle IS the best tool for defense as well as offence. How ever, a pistol is far more practical for situations where a rifle can not be employed! Any one who makes the moral dedication to carry should also have made the moral election to train and educate them selves in the use of defensive tools so that they are able to use them effectively and can minimize collateral damage. A rifle is damn hard to conceal, but a pistol is easy, that's why there are so many of them available! In times when its practical to have a rifle available, then that is the very best tool to have! A shot gun can also be a good tool to have available! The point is, and has always been, to have a pistol only as a back up to a rifle!
I carry a Fighting Rifle!!!! I keep it close, and I can get to it most times when I may need it. I carry a pistol for the times when it might not be possible to get to my Fighting Rifle, or to buy my self time to get to my Fighting Rifle!

!

 

[Brutus57]

I want you all to consider how your handgun will stack up against a man with a rifle?

Little chance of success. And almost certain death!

OK then. I'm in!

One minor plus is these home grown terrorist types aren't expecting anyone to be armed in a GFZ. They expect to kill as many innocent, unarmed civvies as possible. They expect a shooting gallery that doesn't have targets that shoot back. They expect cops but not for minutes, otherwise they choose a softer target. An CCW might just have a small element of surprise...and at least is familiar with the loudness of gunfire! On the train in France the BG couldn't clear a malfunction....

Brutus Out

 

[Koda]

but if I have to explain why a rifle is better than a pistol against an active shooter I guess I should have used smaller words and more pictures.

Riot, everyone here knows why a rifle is better than a pistol but your missing the point, nobody carries a rifle around with them everywhere they go.

 

[tionico]

One minor plus is these home grown terrorist types aren't expecting anyone to be armed in a GFZ. They expect to kill as many innocent, unarmed civvies as possible. They expect a shooting gallery that doesn't have targets that shoot back. They expect cops but not for minutes, otherwise they choose a softer target. An CCW might just have a small element of surprise...and at least is familiar with the loudness of gunfire! On the train in France the BG couldn't clear a malfunction....

Brutus Out

As to the effectiveness or hopelessness of a handgun against a rifle... I have two words to say: Alvin York. Used a standard issue 1911 and cleared out two or three German machine gun nests singlehandedly. Not only were there the machine guns and crews, many of those Jerries also had their Mauser 1898's.... not exactly a wimpy round FAR more powerful than the AR type rifles the mozzie whackjobs used at that Christmas party. And these guys were trained and somewhat seasoned German army.

 

[tionico]

Riot, everyone here knows why a rifle is better than a pistol but your missing the point, nobody carries a rifle around with them everywhere they go.

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I'm pretty sure it is Massad Ayoob who has so often said in his writings and training classes: "any gun will do, if YOU will do".

 

[Ura-Ki]

A-Man! Sgt York was not an exception. He had been issued a good weapon and had been trained in its use. He was also well motivated in killing as many krauts as he could before running out of ammo! He wasn't crazy, he wasn't trying to be a hero, he was trying to stay alive! Today he is all but forgotten out side military circles, but to many of us, he stands as a true hero!

 

[soberups]

My decision of whether or not to engage an active shooter would be a tactical one, based solely on my perceived odds of success. If we are talking about a lunatic with an AR or AK versus my Glock 26, then I am already outgunned and at a serious firepower disadvantage.
I would like to think that I would have the composure to at least help those in my immediate vicinity by covering them while they fled the area, or to gather some of them and "hole up" in a defensible position while awaiting law enforcement. Running into a building with a handgun in order to engage an active shooter is not something that I am trained or equipped to do. That doesn't make me a coward, it makes me a realist.
My first responsibility is to myself and my family. My second responsibility is to the innocent people around me. Their perceived political leanings would not be a factor in any decisions that I might make.

 

[Hook686]

... The people like you are more valuable than people that are not like you.

Now you sound more like the ISIL than the Three Musketeers.

 

[Goosebrown]

Now you sound more like the ISIL than the Three Musketeers.

That is tough. More like a Moslem terrorist or more like a Frenchman. Now I'm torn.

 

[clearconscience]

Regardless of the situation, regardless of who is there and what side of the fight they are on.
If there's someone evil doing horrific things as a person who carry a firearm I believe you have the moral obligation to do what is right to stop the threat and save innocent lives, while first protecting yourself and your family/friends.

I don't care if I saw sharpton flying a death to whitey flag. I would do wht I could to save his life. That's what an American does. That's who we are, that's what built this country to the best in the world.
That's what separates us from the evil.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

 

[nwslopoke]

My family, myself (bread winner) and where possible as many others as I could. Of course babies and children come before myself.

It would be wonderful to say I'm going in guns blazing but that is foolish. You better know who & what you are shooting at. During the 90s California had several work place shootings. I know people involved in two where people died. #### happens fast and you'd probably be too close to react or too far to do anything.

 

[Darkman1692]

Unlike other self defense scenarios where I would have exhausted all other options and have no other option but to pull the trigger, engaging an active shooter is a choice. I hate to admit it, but I decided long ago that I would NEVER put myself in harms way in an attempt to stop an active shooter situation in a predominantly anti gun area. My reasoning is this:

1) Even if I was able to save lives, the public at large wouldn't hear about it. Time and time again when a private citizen does stop the attacker there MIGHT be a small news story in the local new and then the story is quickly buried, so risking my life to promote concealed carry and gun rights would be for nothing.

2) the risk of being demonized for taking a life in order to save lives is not worth it. Why should I essentially throw my life away, potentially lose my job, Have to deal with the police and courts and be harassed by *fill in the blank* ,and that's assuming I managed not to get myself injured in the process, for people that would call the police on me for open carrying legally at any other time. They chose not to be prepared to defend themselves, it's not my job to do it for them when they want to disarm me (and other responsible law abiding gun owners) not to mention having to live with knowledge that I chose to take a life as private citizen to save the ungrateful masses. Doing the right thing can have a heavy emotional toll.

3) the risk of being shot and/or killed by first responders or other concealed carriers is too high. Adrenaline would be pumping and all they would see is a person with a gun drawn in an active shooter situation. What would you do if confronted with that scenario? Not knowing who the "bad guy" is you might shoot another "good guy" not all of these perpetrators are dressed in tactical gear carrying long arms, engaging the wrong target or being engaged yourself is a possibility.

4) Even though I consider myself a decent shot, I am not Rambo, and life is not an action movie. The potential repercussions of hitting an innocent person or even causing property damage with just 1 stray bullet could cost thousands in legal fees in civil court. Not something I would willingly bring upon myself

If, god forbid, I ever find myself in an active shooter situation my priority is to get myself and those with me to safety. I will not make the choice to risk my life, freedom, reputation, career etc. for those that would strip anyone else of their rights and made the choice not to defend themselves.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

A rational and reasoned response. But you know we are driven to do the Right Thing. So many variables, we'll each make our choice at the time. Let us hope it never becomes necessary.

 

[Darkman1692]

Oh I understand, but I realize doing the right thing can come with a heavy price. "No good deed goes unpunished" especially if that right thing is using a firearm in this current political climate.