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A morbid perspective on active shooter situations and saving lives

Discussion in 'Defensive Carry & Self Defense' started by cascadianliberty2012, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. cascadianliberty2012

    cascadianliberty2012 DPR Portland Well-Known Member

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    I listen to Stefan Molyneux's show pretty often and he put forth an interesting argument to a caller who lives near the site of the recent slaughter in California. His argument was essentially this:

    - You should not run into an active shooter situation, even if you're the only one who has a chance to end it because of two things, the people you might save, and the safety risk.

    - The safety risk is obvious, you would likely be out-gunned and putting yourself in unnecessary danger (only engage if the threat is between you and your escape).

    - The people you might save aren't necessarily worth saving on a societal level; these are going to be predominantly people who have been voting to restrict your own ability to defend yourself, as well as voting for other leftist laws that drive the country deeper into the ground.

    - So, when you as a conservative/constitutionalist/libertarian/whatever are in the serious minority and of more philosophical and political value, why risk your life unnecessarily for these people who are essentially your enemies?

    Anyone who has listened/seen his show will know that he likes to put forth controversial, but logically-defensible arguments to make others THINK.

    Does such a perspective have any validity?
     
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  2. Goosebrown

    Goosebrown Beaverton Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    Yes it does. I wouldn't ask or anything but if I knew they were anti gun rights I'd look out for myself not them. There really is no reason to pretend that lives are equal. The people like you are more valuable than people that are not like you.
     
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  3. iamrob

    iamrob Beaverton/Tigard/Sherwood Member

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    The second argument is practically and morally corrupt.

    So you're going to take a political survey before drawing down? Or just make a judgment call based on appearances?

    Only people who agree with your ideology are worthy of life? That's just about as un-American an idea as you can get, IMO.
     
  4. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Every mass shooting gives more momentum to the anti gun advocates that want to ultimately strip us of or firearms, so by taking down a shooter with your concealed weapon you save the day and make a positive statement that guns can save lives.
     
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  5. David Bowman

    David Bowman Beaverton OR Archer Defense Concepts

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    This situation, it all depends. It is a logical argument for an emotional issue.

    Would I leave them to their fate if the exit was clear to me? Is my family with me? Are they in danger? Can we get away unhurt? Are we separated? So many variables to consider. But each of us makes our own decisions on that.

    I run toward the sound of gunfire.

    Some of us know that we would be unable to live with ourselves if we allowed people to be murdered if we could stop it. Some others are looking for that opportunity. The warrior spirit runs deep in many of us and I would be thanking God for the opportunity he has given me to use my skills and talents to put an end to these individuals carrying forth their plan of rapid mass murder.

    I carry everyday to protect myself, but if someone else benefits from that and they don't share my politics; fine by me. My feeling is that regardless of someone's political affiliation, they don't deserve to be murdered and if I have the tools, talent, training and proximity to put an end to the one or more dirt bags who are shooting up the place, then I will.

    I am never outgunned. I have a gun and the tools, talent and training and experience in what is going to happen in a gunfight. The cure for the violence of evil men is righteous violence in return.

    You see terrorists; I brought more soldiers than you did... :s0012:
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
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  6. cascadianliberty2012

    cascadianliberty2012 DPR Portland Well-Known Member

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    It's not about them being worthy of life, but it's about them being worth your potential death. See, this would be different somewhere like Arizona or Utah where odds are the majority of people aren't voting to enslave you. In SoCal though, that's a pretty safe bet. That's the point being made here.

    As bad as it sounds, if I saw someone walking in with a rifle to something like a CPUSA meeting, I would just walk away. But that's an exceedingly explicit example that goes beyond the specificity of any shooting known to me.
     
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  7. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  8. Goosebrown

    Goosebrown Beaverton Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    I don't think so. Only people that are like you, your family and your friends, are worth you taking a risk for them. If I knew I saved a life of someone that was anti gun rights, I'd be sick at my stomach. Especially if I had risked myself (any by extension my family's livelihood) for them.
     
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  9. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    What about on campus? Folks come from all over to learn.
    An elementary school? Little folks who haven't cast a vote.
    Often quoted "when seconds count, help is just minutes away".

    Someone collapsed on the street, step over/around, walk away?

    I can't wrap my mind around the concept you postulate.
    Thinking further, I sense a tribal superiority/inferiority in your words.

    Or are you trolling to get us to do your homework?
     
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  10. Caveman Jim

    Caveman Jim West of Oly Springer Slayer 2016 Volunteer

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    I try very hard to not be around people who I know are liberals. That said, if I was to encounter a shooter while I was there by my self I'd do my duty to protect my Azz (and those around me, especially family first) from enemies, foreign or domestic.
     
  11. cascadianliberty2012

    cascadianliberty2012 DPR Portland Well-Known Member

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    You know, it would be nice if you'd actually read the post and not just complain. Did I once advocate for this position? No, I didn't. I posed a question about a perspective that I came across that was compelling.

    In another post I said I wouldn't save the lives of known Communists, or those who I know to be actively conspiring to kill those who disagree with Maxism-Leninism-Maoism. I also mentioned that such an explicit scenario doesn't apply to the argument in-question because one is a specific case and the other deals with a generalization in an almost-exclusively leftist environment.

    To add on, is it risking your life to check to see if someone is ok after falling down? DOUBTFUL. You need to seriously review even the most elementary components of reason, logic, and discussion.

    "I know you're talking about apples, so here's a baseball."
     
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  12. Sstrand

    Sstrand La Grande OR Well-Known Member

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    HEY THERE . . . Remember what happened to the pitbull who stayed by his master's side until help came?
    RIGHT . . . He got kicked out of the county!!!!!!!!

    Sheldon
     
  13. Goosebrown

    Goosebrown Beaverton Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    Yes. I am a tribalist and nationalist.

    Proudly.

    My family first, my friends close second, Oregon, then the rest of the world.

    Life is, when you think of it, a piece of bubblegum for most people a lot of the time. I am not going to risk for one instant those important to me for a stranger. If there is no risk, sure as long as I know they aren't a liberal of some sort, but risk myself?

    Nope.

    BIG nope.

    And as I say room full of kindergartners or person on the street, mine are more important than theirs. That should apply to you as well. Don't risk your loved one's livelihood and father/brother/mother/sister for someone you don't know. That isn't heroic, that is stupid.
     
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  14. iamrob

    iamrob Beaverton/Tigard/Sherwood Member

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    I believe selflessness is a virtue, and not at all stupid.
     
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  15. Goosebrown

    Goosebrown Beaverton Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    You get to believe what you like. But when your family looks for you at Thanksgiving dinner and see's an empty place at the head of the table, if they have a table to eat on, that will be cold comfort.

    Risking your life for someone that is not part of your "tribe" is not a positive thing for you or your family.
     
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  16. iamrob

    iamrob Beaverton/Tigard/Sherwood Member

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    Well, clearly dying is not positive.

    However, if I'm in an active shooter sutuation, have the ability to stop it and consciously choose not to because the people I would save might vote for a different candidate than I do, then I wouldn't be able to face my family at Thanksgiving anyway.

    But that's me, and I'm glad I live in a world where I'm not the only one who feels this way. My world includes soldiers, police officers, firefighters, and other brave men and women who risk their lives for complete strangers every single day.
     
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  17. cascadianliberty2012

    cascadianliberty2012 DPR Portland Well-Known Member

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    They're also paid by society to do it. Their daily risks are compensated monetarily. The average CHL holder is not a professional in this regard. The only compensation you might get by engaging in this (Keep in mind that I am not suggesting that compensation is a reason or motivation to act) would be landing a book deal afterwards if it was something really crazy.
     
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  18. Goosebrown

    Goosebrown Beaverton Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    For pay.
     
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  19. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Cascadianliberty2012;
    I did read your trolls.
    "a morbid perspective on saving lives in an active shooter situation".
    A perspective similar to NPD "Narcissistic personality disorder".

    I also believe selflessness is a virtue.
    Served my country
    Blue collar, worked hard, debt free, retired.
    Food on the table, Daughter and grandson living with us.
    Volunteer Fire EMS
    I know I'm different, been spit-on, undermined, demeaned by PC tribalists.
    I'm tribal, but a different kind of tribal
    Sincerely,
    Rick, right-threaded wingnut.
    upload_2015-12-10_9-1-51.jpeg
     
  20. cascadianliberty2012

    cascadianliberty2012 DPR Portland Well-Known Member

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    Once again, you are attributing the perspective of someone else to me. I merely pose the question for discussion.

    Your broken-record remarks are far more consistent with that of a troll than my questions.
     
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