A morbid perspective on active shooter situations and saving lives

[Ura-Ki]

Most importantly..
"What would Chuck Norris SAY..??!!"
By the by, I love the way it corrects curse words wit "bubblegum.."
WHAT THE BUBBLEGUM'S WIT-DAT..??!!!
Bubblegumm'n bubblegum-bubblegum..!! WTB..!!

Exactly! Bubblegum! W.T.B.

 

[Ura-Ki]

We hear of people risking it all to save others all the time be it a car accident, a fire, a drowning, ext........ but now days we have shootings on a regular basis, and this puts us in s different place then we are used to! Coming to terms with that is going to be as personal a choice as jumping in to a river to save some one, or a burning building! TO at least try is what makes us HUMAN! WE are programed with one basic survival instinct......FIGHT OF FLIGHT We can only choose one!!!

 

[tionico]

We hear of people risking it all to save others all the time be it a car accident, a fire, a drowning, ext........ but now days we have shootings on a regular basis, and this puts us in s different place then we are used to! Coming to terms with that is going to be as personal a choice as jumping in to a river to save some one, or a burning building! TO at least try is what makes us HUMAN! WE are programed with one basic survival instinct......FIGHT OF FLIGHT We can only choose one!!!

car craches are still FAR more common that shootemups, or even armed robberies and housebreakings. Yet we read all the time of mundanes not hesitating a bit to step up and "save the day". Read just the other day, I think it was near Concinati Ohio, armed robbery in a barber shop, could shots fired, passerby, armed, stepped into the door and dropped the perp, Dead. No patrons or barbers hurt. My fvourite of late, though is the 13 year old boy left at home for a short while with two younger siblings.. armed intruder busted in, kid ran upstairs for Dad's handgun, ran back downstairs and shot the perp... dead. Brothers unharmed. Coppers were VERY impressed. But Dad had spent time with Son, taught him safety, handling, and marksmanship, Thus he was able to trust Son with knowing where his gun was... never dreamed it would come to this, but it die. And Dad was SO glad he's taken the time with Son. Who COULD have run out the door and left little brothers behind....... but did not.

 

[Ura-Ki]

A- man

 

[Member 5605]

Good questions @cascadianliberty2012 and thanks for posting them from the show.

As a passive person to an extent, one who has never been and will probably never be in any sort of altercation or fight... I may have a different perspective than some since I did not serve in the military and write a blank check to the country with my life. I'm 34 years young now and am from a self seeking and self serving generation of kids who had hippies for parents. To each your own is what we were taught. While I may be in that generation, I'm not an impulse action type of person. In my naughty days I schemed up the ways to do things that required planning to not get caught... and I didn't.

The concept of storming in half cocked full of testosterone is one I think that we all can put on the shelf. I personally believe that all of us would assess the situation and determine if there is something we can/could do. I doubt we would go into a multiple AR-15 shooting with a Keltec P11.

Family is first. Period. I think assessing the lives of those being threatened is kind of selfish and I would hope that people wouldn't look at them as worth it or not. Would I step in to save those at a MDA rally? Probably. Life is precious and you only get one go round here.

Again, I've never served. I've never been fired upon and I say this from my computer in a comfortable chair. I would though not hesitate to stick my hand down somebodys throat, grab their sphincter and turn them inside out to protect my family. (often times I use that reference to an attacking dog by grabbing its tail and turning it inside out).

Mentally we must be prepared and willing to accept if we can live with knowing that we either did all that we could, or if we did what we needed to so that we could survive. Everyone is different.

Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. Meek is the key.

 

[kenham]

Sorry guys, I'm late to this discussion. I did 4 years in the military, 30 years as a cop/detective and 11 years as a P.I.. I've probably had 500 hours of firearms training. In Washington anyone it appears can get a lic to carry. No training necessary. I have talked to some with carry permits who have no idea when or where to shoot, or when to run or when to stay. I always have said don't F---- with my wife, my dog or me. I go into no gun zones with my Kimber 45, always. I don't allow someone to pat me down. If there is a big fuss I'll leave. An active shooter situation will require you to assess your position and then make a decision. Of course make your loved ones safe first. The problem is the guy I mentioned above who has no training and wants to be the hero, he looks, sees someone with a gun and starts shooting, perhaps at you. Like I said, it all depends on the situation, without any details I'm for getting out with my loved ones and tough bubblegum for anyone who will try to stop that.

 

[CoastRange57]

Late to the party also. The OP was clearly mixing a tactical decision with some kind of social qualifier. They do not go together at all.

A situational assessment is not going to include a political component. The tactical implications clearly out weight any social considerations. I don't go to gun free zones or hang out with liberal hand wringers who will wait for the police to arrive and protect them.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

I listen to Stefan Molyneux's show pretty often and he put forth an interesting argument to a caller who lives near the site of the recent slaughter in California....

I also listened to that podcast. The caller was in San Francisco, not near the recent terror attack. The point Stefan Molyneux was trying to make was that in a State where carrying a firearm in public is against the law, once you pull out your pistol to defend anyone but yourself it automatically identifies you as a bad guy to the police and general populace.

 

[tionico]

I also listened to that podcast. The caller was in San Francisco, not near the recent terror attack. The point Stefan Molyneux was trying to make was that in a State where carrying a firearm in public is against the law, once you pull out your pistol to defend anyone but yourself it automatically identifies you as a bad guy to the police and general populace.

Carrying a firearm in public is NOT against the law in California. Yes, they recently banned open carry, but not concealed. All it takes is to pay the fees and dance the jig to get your Mother May I Card..... but here's the rub: in most counties, the sheriff will grant the permit unless you are a "prohibited person" (felon, under indictment, crazy, etc) But in the handful of counties with the most population, the local chief LE offier will not give them to anyone... except for a very few select inside buddies, the very wealthy/famous, etc. Friend of mine ia a Private INvestigator in the State of Califnora, his legal residence is in Berserkeley... and HE cannot get the carry permit. On the other hand, the sheriffs in San Bernardino, Orange, almost every one along the !-5 and Hwy 99 corridors, and on into northern California (except Marin, Sonoma, counties) are happy to issue them. Once having the Mother May I Card in your county of residence there is nothing to stop you from carrying in ANY part of the state. While it is legal (with the Card) in every part of the state, some local LE can, and do, make life miserable for you and those with you. And THAT needs to be stopped. But I won't hold my breath hoping that day will come soon......

 

[P7M13]

Back to the original OPs question, this is a valid perspective:

1. if you're a coward;
2. Or, if you
   • are selfish,
   • have a distorted perception of what is the "right thing to do,"
   • lack compassion for your fellow man.

 

[cascadianliberty2012]

I also listened to that podcast. The caller was in San Francisco, not near the recent terror attack. The point Stefan Molyneux was trying to make was that in a State where carrying a firearm in public is against the law, once you pull out your pistol to defend anyone but yourself it automatically identifies you as a bad guy to the police and general populace.

No he wasn't, I think he said he's a bit over an hour away from SB, but closer to SF. Same environment though, really. That was the take-home message of the discussion, but there was the big point of disagreement between them where Stefan made the argument that I outlined; why would you risk your life for those who want your rights taken away? There definitely was a lot to think about...

 

[tionico]

No he wasn't, I think he said he's a bit over an hour away from SB, but closer to SF. Same environment though, really. That was the take-home message of the discussion, but there was the big point of disagreement between them where Stefan made the argument that I outlined; why would you risk your life for those who want your rights taken away? There definitely was a lot to think about...

except that thus Stephan character makes a false statement... it is NOT against the law to carry a firearm in public in Califnrone.. sure, few in either the San Francisco or Los Angeles areas have paid the misery and money to get the MotherMay I Card, "allowing" them to carry concealed in almost every part of the state... state buildings of any sort being a notable exception, and what made this venue a Designated Defenseless Victim Concentration Zone. Sure, the leg outlawed open carry not long ago, and the people sat down and took it.
Actually, the environments of San Francisco and San Bernardino are worlds apart.... out in SB county, the sheriffs and city cops WANT the public to be carrying.. and WILL issue the Mother May I Cards to anyone not disqualified. Sheriff has gone on the record, and on TeeVee, multiple times, ASKING his people to get their permits. In SF, owever.. there might be fifty Mother May I Cards issued to non LE or city gummint officials.. yup, THEY disallowYOU the card, but all have them "for their own protection". Seems some animals are more equal than others....... I MIGHT be able to tolerate living in SB County, but never in SF. Or Oakland, anywhere else in the Bay Area. Hah, even "rural" Sonoma County refuse to grant Mother May I Cards to anyone.. unless you're SOMEONE. You know, one of the "more equal" folks.

 

[Ura-Ki]

The Sheepls Replblic Of Kalifornia is lost. They have given up many of there rights, and continue to loose more every day! Other states have followed there lead and have enacted some draconian fire arms laws. Oregon is next people, prepare now, or suffer for your lack of action!

 

[DAKEZ]

This looks to be something right out of The Onion. Please tell me the fool was not trying to be serious. ALWAYS defend the weak... No Matter their political leaning. After you save their asses, maybe, just maybe they will wake up to the fact that guns are merely tools.

 

[Sstrand]

DAKEZ
Don't expect them to change their views or say thank you. If (and that is a BIG IF) they offer to shake your hand it is only to keep you busy while one or more of their liberal brethren stabs you in the back!!!!!!

Sheldon

 

[Hamilton Felix]

The best research I can find states that "mass shootings" stopped by Police average 14.3 deaths, while mass shootings stopped by armed citizens average 2.3 deaths. That's simply because someone is there with a gun and can act immediately, while Police take time to respond. Unfortunately for our side, "mass shootings" that are stopped before they run up a big enough body count to qualify as mass shootings do not make great news copy - or our media chooses not to run with those stories.

The bottom line is, we have to try. Not try to get killed, know your limitations, but we have to try. Islamic terrorism is just getting started here. Our Muslim In Chief is interested only in disarming the victims. It will be up to US to stop it. We could learn a lot from Israel.

The average terrorist with AK or AR, shouting "Allahu Ahkbar!" and blasting the crowd, is not likely to be a great tactical mind. He's likely not targeted on one specific person, only on mass murder. If you can get to cover and deliver a couple of well aimed shots, or even advance while firing accurately as one 60 year old Garland, Texas cop did, your odds may not be all that bad. But you have to try. Yeah, some members of our population may not be worth the risk, but many are. And America is.

 

[Riot]

I listen to Stefan Molyneux's show pretty often and he put forth an interesting argument to a caller who lives near the site of the recent slaughter in California. His argument was essentially this:

- You should not run into an active shooter situation, even if you're the only one who has a chance to end it because of two things, the people you might save, and the safety risk.

- The safety risk is obvious, you would likely be out-gunned and putting yourself in unnecessary danger (only engage if the threat is between you and your escape).

- The people you might save aren't necessarily worth saving on a societal level; these are going to be predominantly people who have been voting to restrict your own ability to defend yourself, as well as voting for other leftist laws that drive the country deeper into the ground.

- So, when you as a conservative/constitutionalist/libertarian/whatever are in the serious minority and of more philosophical and political value, why risk your life unnecessarily for these people who are essentially your enemies?

Anyone who has listened/seen his show will know that he likes to put forth controversial, but logically-defensible arguments to make others THINK.

Does such a perspective have any validity?

Not on the aspect of the "The people you might save aren't necessarily worth saving on a societal level..." part.

He's thinking linear...someone who is willing to be a sheep that willfully disarms that votes Democrat and demands "gun free zones".

What about schools?
What about at a playground or waterpark?

The argument that because there are probably anti-gun, terrorist-sympathizing, ambulance-chasing, sue-happy Libtards is a poor argument to make. In fact, it is one that a Sociopath makes to justify immoral actions against someone.

Instead, I would make the argument that you may be seen as apart of the problem...that someone may shoot you trying to be a hero running with your gun out during an active shooter.

It can also be argued that you will probably be sued and vilified for whatever actions you decide (Engage/Not Engage) if given the opportunity. The shooter may die and you might still be alive...with a house...with a car...with a business...whatever. Today's society is quick to lay blame.

*Got an NRA sticker on your Ford F150? You were probably wanting this to happen.
*Got extensive military/defensive training? You could have disarmed him.
*Used to do marksmanship matches or have fancy accessories on your firearm? You could have shot him in the leg and wounded him.

This cycle is endless and the Libs will find a way to make you out to be the bad guy no matter how bad the situation is. Nevertheless, we need more people willing to violently defend themselves instead of rolling over, turning a blind eye or excepting their fate. That is the only way we can be a formidable culture- instead of one that rolls over every time force is used against it. We are turning into a country of slaves....slaves to marketing, politics, religion and entertainment while the world is burning around us.

I guess I have to ask the big question...when will Stefan Molyneux decide to get involved?

*When it is his work?
*When it is his neighbor?
*When it is his family member?

Where does he draw the line and say who is or is not worth defending? A sheepdog goes after the wolf, regardless of what lamb is being attacked...

 

[Certaindeaf]

It's kinda sad that twenty million(?) jews were murdered before we stepped in.
I guess there are still apathetic souls upon this planet.

 

[Riot]

I have to politely disagree with this. The only time a handgun does not stack up against a rifle is outside of handgun range. Most of these mass shootings take place inside handgun range.

Penetration
Mag Capacity
Recoil Control
Accuracy

Where, exactly, do pistols "stack up" with rifles or excel above a rifle? Concealing? Mobility?

Pistols are notoriously horrible "man stoppers". You almost need to carry a Desert Eagle in .44 mag with a red-dot sight and extended mags for a pistol to "stack up" against a rifle.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Penetration
Mag Capacity
Recoil Control
Accuracy

Where, exactly, do pistols "stack up" with rifles or excel above a rifle? Concealing? Mobility?

Pistols are notoriously horrible "man stoppers". You almost need to carry a Desert Eagle in .44 mag with a red-dot sight and extended mags for a pistol to "stack up" against a rifle.

View attachment 269016

Oh they'll kill yer bubblegum. Blink. How far did you get trying to get to your magic rifle. oh yea.. not real far