Other State 20 Heavily Armed IRS and ATF Agents Raid Great Falls Gun Store, Seize Firearm Purchase Records

[Yarome]

So how does the IRS know the value of the guns in each 4473?

In forensic accounting... it's not so much using the 4473's for financial information but to confirm the financial sales records match up to actual individual sales. IE, If they have 1000 individual gun sale records and only 500 firearms listed on 4473's... somethings rotten in denmark.

 

[Longwalkhome]

So how does the IRS know the value of the guns in each 4473?

I've seen guns online that have at least $100-$200 variance in prices between one seller and another, not including guns that are on a special discount sale. Not to mention accessories, special features, etc.

Beyond that, any particular gun that is used and not new, may be heavily discounted due to use and/or damage.

Same way used cars were used to hide drug money, cash is used and what's written down is different than what's actually paid. I get a chuckle about a high school mate who was said to be the first millionaire of our class. Went to prison for selling drugs and hiding his profits in a used car business.

 

[The Heretic]

Hanlon's Razor :
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

The Heretic's Razor:

"When it comes to government bureaucracies exercising power plays, malice, a lust for power and stupidity are often mixed together in equal proportions."

 

[Yarome]

Letter from a congressman to the alphabets:

 

[Longwalkhome]

I don't think people realize that the questions on the 4473 make it a court document. The question about drug use, if you have been buying from a pot shop then it can be tracked and you will have lied on the form. It's a federal law you can't lie on the form and all those forms they collected will be scrutinize with the intent to catch liars and remove their gun rights.

Anyway it's time to go play, enjoy life gents as it's far too short.

 

[The Heretic]

Same way used cars were used to hide drug money, cash is used and what's written down is different than what's actually paid. I get a chuckle about a high school mate who was said to be the first millionaire of our class. Went to prison for selling drugs and hiding his profits in a used car business.

Hard to prove without more info.

The amount of info on a 4473 regarding the firearm is often not sufficient to indicate the value of the firearm. E.G., the 4473 shows Manufacturer, "Model" and serial # - If I enter "SIG" and "P226", there is a lot of info missing as to value; the 226 might be a rare variation; e.g., a Legion or SSE in perfect NIB condition may have a sale price double that of a std Plain Jane Nitron. If the gun includes night sights that often adds $100, if it includes an SRT at least another $50, and so on.

Also, what if the buyer is trading in another gun?

How about if the gun being sold is a rare Winchester Model 94 that has a lot of provenance and in excellent condition? Big difference that and a current crappy Model 94 that has been beaten up while hunting.

I could go on and on.

There is all kinds of missing info on a 4473 with regards to gun value, that if a FFL wanted to hide income, and they were smart about how they did it, they could easily hide that income in a way that would be hard to prove in court.

 

[Longwalkhome]

Hard to prove without more info.

The amount of info on a 4473 regarding the firearm is often not sufficient to indicate the value of the firearm. E.G., the 4473 shows Manufacturer, "Model" and serial # - If I enter "SIG" and "P226", there is a lot of info missing as to value; the 226 might be a rare variation; e.g., a Legion or SSE in perfect NIB condition may have a sale price double that of a std Plain Jane Nitron. If the gun includes night sights that often adds $100, if it includes an SRT at least another $50, and so on.

Also, what if the buyer is trading in another gun?

How about if the gun being sold is a rare Winchester Model 94 that has a lot of provenance and in excellent condition? Big difference that and a current crappy Model 94 that has been beaten up while hunting.

I could go on and on.

There is all kinds of missing info on a 4473 with regards to gun value, that if a FFL wanted to hide income, and they were smart about how they did it, they could easily hide that income in a way that would be hard to prove in court.

Yesterday I bought a new handgun. Two of the questions on the 4473 had been changed and the FFL explained that the new questions were to track sales after you bought the gun....and ammo

• 21b: "Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition, for sale of other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m) or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant exception?"
  
• 21.c.: "Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?"

 

[GrayGoose]

IRS agents should not have the authority to be armed.

 

[monkeybutler]

IRS agents should not have the authority to be armed.

Oh, right because they never end up facing hostile dipsticks while doing their jobs.

 

[msgriff]

IRS agents should not have the authority to be armed.

The Marxists would disagree.

 

[monkeybutler]

The Marxists would disagree.
View attachment 1439224

… and the thread descends into off-topic political garbage….

 

[Catfishmoon]

It is very entertaining to watch people prone to conspiracy theories immediately postulate their newest tinfoil hat ideas about three minutes after the story appears.

 

[ghostfadekilla]

It was made very clear that the AFT was going to go after the FFL's in their letter to the FFL's. It's not surprising to see this imho, with the instances of the AFTs in LGSs taking pictures of their 4473 books (illegal) and the utter lack of oversight that's taking place is absurd. As a regular citizen that does believe in democracy, it's sad to see this happening so much without consequences.

 

[The Heretic]

It is very entertaining to watch people prone to conspiracy theories immediately postulate their newest tinfoil hat ideas about three minutes after the story appears.

Because of course the government is only here to help us and not take away our guns?

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

… and the thread descends into off-topic political garbage….

Which is a HUGE improvement, most threads these days need to climb UP to get to the level of off-topic garbage

 

[Longwalkhome]

It is very entertaining to watch people prone to conspiracy theories immediately postulate their newest tinfoil hat ideas about three minutes after the story appears.

and there is always, always someone who declares it all "tin foil hat".

 

[CamoDeafie]

It is very entertaining to watch people prone to conspiracy theories immediately postulate their newest tinfoil hat ideas about three minutes after the story appears.

What, no, surely not.
Why, the ATF have been the paragon of honesty and transparency, as well as the DOJ, so much so that the Congressional Hearings pretty much confirmed that the ATF and DOJ have Legislative authority, and that Congress should let them do what they want.

Why, they only needed the 4473s to confirm what the stores sold, and they just needed to take pictures of FFL Bound Books to ensure the FFLS aren't selling to Prohibited Persons.

Of course, the DOJ and ATF have been non partisan in going after rogue FFLs for the documentations and white YouTube personalities for etched metal cards and not doing a dang thing about the countless criminal gangsters using illegal Glock switches or the 3d file creators and pages

HUGE HEAP OF SARCASM HERE

 

[Member 34319]

It is very entertaining to watch people prone to conspiracy theories immediately postulate their newest tinfoil hat ideas about three minutes after the story appears.

Yes. It is quite the entertaining thread.

99% of what the ATF does and or any governing agency is unknown to the public. Yet, here we are among the most elite experts telling us exactly what went down!

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Yes. It is quite the entertaining thread.

99% of what the ATF does and or any governing agency is unknown to the public. Yet, here we are among the most elite experts telling us exactly what went down!

 

[Knobgoblin]

Fair enough, but at the very beginning of the investigation?

Full disclosure, I may have jumped the gun a bit with my question, but I have seen this movie so many times before I got a bit ahead of myself

Was it this movie?