Other State 20 Heavily Armed IRS and ATF Agents Raid Great Falls Gun Store, Seize Firearm Purchase Records

[Kruel J]

It's psychology, the country is run on fear when dictators rule. Odds are there will be a great number of incidents to drive fear into the population.

This.

 

[Yarome]

So because speculation is ok, with that new info it sounds like he is suspected of criminal tax fraud and that might/would be enough to close his business, and when an FFL closes the ATF takes possession of the 4473's, so maybe Nelson chatted with the IRS folks, looked at the case against the owner and decided might as well grab them now and save the inevitable trip back in a few days

That would still be an illegal grab. If his FFL license is still active and his business hasn't been shut down yet they can't legally demand records not included in the warrant. I could see the alphabet agent he was speaking to might be inclined to cooperate with another alphabet though.

Kinda like asking a cop if you should obey the orders of another cop(?)

It probably would have been in his best interest to contact his attorney instead of taking advice of what to turn over to the alphabet from another alphabet agent.

Hindsight and all.....

 

[Longwalkhome]

I dunno about the OP article authors, but there is that video interview with the owner that seemed to confirm some of it... in his own words.

It sounds like the IRS did in fact take financial records. Supposedly accused of failing to report and under reporting millions of income.

"Van Hoose tells us the 4473 forms were not included on the list of financial records specifically listed on the warrant the IRS agents served him during the raid. Yet they took them anyway.

Concerned about handing over his firearm transaction records, Van Hoose told me he called Kirk Nelson, the ATF Area Supervisor in Helena, Montana with whom he said he's always had a good working relationship. Nelson initially told him he didn't have to turn over the 4473 forms as they don't contain financial information and weren't listed on the warrant. But after some further discussion with the IRS agents on the scene, Nelson changed his tune and told Van Hoose to hand them over."

IRS Confiscates Tens of Thousands of 4473 Forms From Great Falls, MT Gun Dealer - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ Tom Van Hoose has owned Highwood Creed Outfitters in Great Falls, Montana for 13 years. As he pulled into work Wednesday morning, twenty heavily armed Internal Revenue Service Criminal Investigation Division agents swarmed his store. He tells TTAG that the IRS...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

When the IRS is involved they use any documents available to make a case on taxes owed. Guns can be a cash business and like used cars a way to hide income. IRS is looking for hidden income.

 

[Kruel J]

So, it has begun... perhaps now we know the full reason why B_dn needed his 80,000 new IRS agents.

Threads merged.

 

[Koda]

seems to me if the ATF wanted to illegally take 4473 forms to build a registry they would just build a separate registry from the 4473 forms they get when guns are purchased before they shred them.

 

[Member 34319]

They are coming for you next, best go buy more!

 

[Kruel J]

seems to me if the ATF wanted to illegally take 4473 forms to build a registry they would just build a separate registry from the 4473 forms they get when guns are purchased before they shred them.

I am 100% sure this has been happening for years.

 

[RobMa]

 

[Alexx1401]

While I have little to no use for either of these agencies I am VERY skeptical here. The norm is to get that kind of attention the owner had to be doing something to really get on their radar. I VERY much doubt this was just all above board little shop and they just decided to roll in like that. It will be very interesting to hear if more comes out about this later.

 

[Alexx1401]

seems to me if the ATF wanted to illegally take 4473 forms to build a registry they would just build a separate registry from the 4473 forms they get when guns are purchased before they shred them.

They have had that ever since they passed the law that all sales have to be run through the Gov. There is no way in hell I would ever believe they have not been keeping the records of these sales ever since this started.

 

[Kruel J]

They have had that ever since they passed the law that all sales have to be run through the Gov. There is no way in hell I would ever believe they have not been keeping the records of these sales ever since this started.

Exactly.

 

[Longwalkhome]

Guns are considered taxable in collections, IRS is looking to get tax money and close down as many FFL s as possible.

87,000 new hires at IRS to go after cash businesses until digital currency is put in.

 

[Yarome]

When the IRS is involved they use any documents available to make a case on taxes owed. Guns can be a cash business and like used cars a way to hide income. IRS is looking for hidden income.

Very true. You would think the alphabets would realize what they needed to include on their warrant though, hu. Unless they didn't think they had probable cause enough to get a judge to sign off on 4473's too... and just figured they would apply a bit of pressure and wing it.

Which... apparently worked. In essence, the FFL voluntarily handed over confidential customer info.

I'm not saying the FFL might not have done anything to warrant an investigation, but both sides still have to play by the rules. The alphabets should have had 4473's on the warrant to legally demand them and the FFL shouldn't have handed them over without a warrant.

 

[Longwalkhome]

Very true. You would think the alphabets would realize what they needed to include on their warrant though, hu. Unless they didn't think they had probable cause enough to get a judge to sign off on 4473's too... and just figured they would apply a bit of pressure and wing it.

Which... apparently worked. In essence, the FFL voluntarily handed over confidential customer info.

I'm not saying the FFL might not have done anything to warrant an investigation, but both sides still have to play by the rules. The alphabets should have had 4473's on the warrant to legally demand them and the FFL shouldn't have handed them over without a warrant.

Especially when the 4473s will be used as evidence against the FFL. IRS will use them to track the guns and the money involved. If the cash doesn't match up then it's tax evasion. A lot of cash businesses like bars and laundry mats try to hide cash profits, used cars businesses hide the drug money.

 

[Alexx1401]

Very true. You would think the alphabets would realize what they needed to include on their warrant though, hu. Unless they didn't think they had probable cause enough to get a judge to sign off on 4473's too... and just figured they would apply a bit of pressure and wing it.

Which... apparently worked. In essence, the FFL voluntarily handed over confidential customer info.

I'm not saying the FFL might not have done anything to warrant an investigation, but both sides still have to play by the rules. The alphabets should have had 4473's on the warrant to legally demand them and the FFL shouldn't have handed them over without a warrant.

Now here I tend to wonder about accuracy of reporting. The ATF can walk in and see all the forms any time they want. The FFL's I have known who had them visit and see a form they wanted said they would just make a copy of it since the form is supposed to remain with the FFL unless this has changed, which I doubt. With the tech we have today I tend to wonder if they would not just make copies of them all rather than actually taking the originals. The reporting on the net any more is often so far off that its really hard to know what is true, what is just poorly written, and what is flat out made up.

 

[Koda]

They have had that ever since they passed the law that all sales have to be run through the Gov. There is no way in hell I would ever believe they have not been keeping the records of these sales ever since this started.

That's exactly my point...

The gateway is lying

 

[The Heretic]

Especially when the 4473s will be used as evidence against the FFL. IRS will use them to track the guns and the money involved. If the cash doesn't match up then it's tax evasion. A lot of cash businesses like bars and laundry mats try to hide cash profits, used cars businesses hide the drug money.

So how does the IRS know the value of the guns in each 4473?

I've seen guns online that have at least $100-$200 variance in prices between one seller and another, not including guns that are on a special discount sale. Not to mention accessories, special features, etc.

Beyond that, any particular gun that is used and not new, may be heavily discounted due to use and/or damage.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

With stories like this...
It is important to know :
Who was involved...
What they were doing...
Why they were doing it.....

Reason being is that at times...various organizations have overreached their boundaries , broken laws , used laws against the people they are supposed to serve...etc...

Also as noted above...
The accuracy of reporting just what happened , to who and the why...is important as well.
Way too much posting of click bait BS and speculative "reporting" or slanted "reporting " with many sources.
It is wise to check with several different sources , to even get a gist or glimmer of the facts.

And with all that said...
In regards to 4473's....I have no doubt that they are being used to create a database so one can know who owns what firearms.
Do I have proof...Nope....but I do have a good understanding of history and behavior.
Andy

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

That's exactly my point...

The gateway is lying

Hanlon's Razor :
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 

[Longwalkhome]

Now here I tend to wonder about accuracy of reporting. The ATF can walk in and see all the forms any time they want. The FFL's I have known who had them visit and see a form they wanted said they would just make a copy of it since the form is supposed to remain with the FFL unless this has changed, which I doubt. With the tech we have today I tend to wonder if they would not just make copies of them all rather than actually taking the originals. The reporting on the net any more is often so far off that its really hard to know what is true, what is just poorly written, and what is flat out made up.

Just thinking if the original 4473 is being taken then it's for evidence of a crime because as you say the ATF has copies of the bound books. Every time the ATF inspects an FFL they look at the bound books for what's different.

4473 is a court document and can be used in a lot of ways.