Other State 20 Heavily Armed IRS and ATF Agents Raid Great Falls Gun Store, Seize Firearm Purchase Records

[Longwalkhome]

Oh they totally did say they were legal-ish. They didn't ever really say you could use them as stocks.

All the other stuff is just government. Government ain't fast, shoot it took them a better part of a decade to realize what we were all doing with these things. Only a few million units later right? or was it the tens of thousands of YouTube videos with folks clear as day using them as stocks?

I don't see this as corruption or whatnot, just politics as per usual. If it isn't blue doing it, it's red. Don't forget our beloved orange man banned bumpstocks outright. He did more than this blue old fool has and likely will. But we hate blue man more than orange man because?!?!

Ive had my experiences with the justice system, at the bottom it's surprisingly not that bad. Just don't and get yourself up a few rungs where politics and justice blend. That's just idiots striving for power. Or as I like to call it "entertainment"!

yep, nothing to see here so just move along... besides look what the other guys are doing.

I am done here.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Given what "Facts" we have been allowed to know here, It's pretty easy to Read into this things that are likely NOT TRUE!

That being said, I suspect there is MUCH more going on here, and given the facts we do know, I suspect something more sinister is afoot. Lemme Splain:
According to the Store Owner ( And Corroborated by the local Sheriff's office), he had been under surveillance by various fed agencies for AT LEAST 2 years, ( Why???) What could the store and it's owner have done to warrant such scrutiny? If this was simply Tax evasion, it wouldn't require such a raid, same with a 4473 issue that wouldn't need any of the other agencies involvement but the ATF, and yet we have 6+ agencies tripping over each other, somethin don't add up here! Why would the IRS seize the 4473's, there is ZERO tax info contained within those forms, and no other agency should have any access to that information, so that takes the TAX issue out of it! Why would the AFT be involved and NOT take the 4473's as the Agency that administrates that? Why all the other agencies like DHS, what could possibly involve them?
The Owner did claim that he had been asked where he was on Jan 6th, could that be the reason for all this?
here's another thought, WHAT IF, this wasn't about this store, other then the "Lists" contained within the 4473's, given this store is well known for it's sales of MSR's and other stuff, what if this is how the Fed's are getting their info on customers who may have purchased things the Feds don't want us to have, things that were perfectly legal once, but not now! At the end of the day, I still smell a Great Big Stinky here, this shouldn't happen, not like this, and WHERE WAS THE DAMN SHERIFF?
OK, last thoughts on this, Given the ATF's "Final Rule" on Arm Braces, ( And lets not forget the other sh!t like the forced reset triggers) what if this "PANTY RAID" is actually going after buyers of all those naughty things, and all these agencies are sharing the work load looking for additional charges to stack against any Buyers when it comes time for Search/Arrest Warrants?

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Given what "Facts" we have been allowed to know here, It's pretty easy to Read into this things that are likely NOT TRUE!

That being said, I suspect there is MUCH more going on here, and given the facts we do know, I suspect something more sinister is afoot. Lemme Splain:
According to the Store Owner ( And Corroborated by the local Sheriff's office), he had been under surveillance by various fed agencies for AT LEAST 2 years, ( Why???) What could the store and it's owner have done to warrant such scrutiny? If this was simply Tax evasion, it wouldn't require such a raid, same with a 4473 issue that wouldn't need any of the other agencies involvement but the ATF, and yet we have 6+ agencies tripping over each other, somethin don't add up here! Why would the IRS seize the 4473's, there is ZERO tax info contained within those forms, and no other agency should have any access to that information, so that takes the TAX issue out of it! Why would the AFT be involved and NOT take the 4473's as the Agency that administrates that? Why all the other agencies like DHS, what could possibly involve them?
The Owner did claim that he had been asked where he was on Jan 6th, could that be the reason for all this?
here's another thought, WHAT IF, this wasn't about this store, other then the "Lists" contained within the 4473's, given this store is well known for it's sales of MSR's and other stuff, what if this is how the Fed's are getting their info on customers who may have purchased things the Feds don't want us to have, things that were perfectly legal once, but not now! At the end of the day, I still smell a Great Big Stinky here, this shouldn't happen, not like this, and WHERE WAS THE DAMN SHERIFF?
OK, last thoughts on this, Given the ATF's "Final Rule" on Arm Braces, ( And lets not forget the other sh!t like the forced reset triggers) what if this "PANTY RAID" is actually going after buyers of all those naughty things, and all these agencies are sharing the work load looking for additional charges to stack against any Buyers when it comes time for Search/Arrest Warrants?

You know what would be in all those forms? Who did what to whom and for how many cookies

Or, who sold guns to whom and where did the money come from and where did it go

 

[CamoDeafie]

You know what would be in all those forms? Who did what to whom and for how many cookies

Or, who sold guns to whom and where did the money come from and where did it go

Except.. the Form.4473 has nothing detailing how much $ was exchanged per transaction. The form does have a section for how many firearms are transferred; which firearms are being bought (gauge/caliber, type, serial, model).

Basically, the buyer's entire info and the firearms transferred information. But no value information. if the shop owner is truthful; that they only took the 4473s and nothing else? Somethings up.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

if the shop owner is truthful

I wouldn't give you even money on that

 

[Yarome]

Except.. the Form.4473 has nothing detailing how much $ was exchanged per transaction. The form does have a section for how many firearms are transferred; which firearms are being bought (gauge/caliber, type, serial, model).

Basically, the buyer's entire info and the firearms transferred information. But no value information. if the shop owner is truthful; that they only took the 4473s and nothing else? Somethings up.

Many of the articles especially mentioned the 4473's... since it seemed more "news worthy" that it was an oddity for the IRS to want them and were not listed on the warrant to seize... but I don't recall reading anywhere that anyone said they took "only" the 4473's.

On the contrary, it was mentioned that their financial records where on the warrant so I think it's safe to assume they did indeed take his financial records... it just wasn't news worthy enough to confirm they took those too(?)

 

[CamoDeafie]

I wouldn't give you even money on that

Victim blaming much? (as in "he gotta have done something to get the IRS looking at him")

Interview seems to say that it wasn't only the 4473s; but other documentation. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe financial transactions include firearm specific information? Just basic "rifle/handgun/pistol/shotgun" info and prices listed/paid? And depending on the State (Montana isn't one, last I recall?); the FFL only records that a transfer occurred between private parties with just the 4473s being evidence of the transfer and a receipt showing a transfer fee being done between private parties plus background check? (Oregon does this)

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Many of the articles especially mentioned the 4473's... since it seemed more "news worthy" that it was an oddity for the IRS to want them and were not listed on the warrant to seize... but I don't recall reading anywhere that anyone said they took "only" the 4473's.

On the contrary, it was mentioned that their financial records where on the warrant so I think it's safe to assume they did indeed take his financial records... it just wasn't news worthy enough to confirm they took those too(?)

I haven't read those stories, but newsroom budgets have been cut so much that often times they just copy/paste whatever comes across the wire

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Victim blaming much? (as in "he gotta have done something to get the IRS looking at him")

No, more like I have no reason to believe or disbelieve him at this point so that works out to an even chance that it could go either way

 

[Longwalkhome]

Except.. the Form.4473 has nothing detailing how much $ was exchanged per transaction. The form does have a section for how many firearms are transferred; which firearms are being bought (gauge/caliber, type, serial, model).

Basically, the buyer's entire info and the firearms transferred information. But no value information. if the shop owner is truthful; that they only took the 4473s and nothing else? Somethings up.

4473 is a court document, it's dated and signed when the transaction took place. From there it goes to gathering bank information from the buyer and seller. The banks and credit card companies have been happy to help.

If the transaction was done in cash it's harder to track but the FFLs spending habits will be used to prove a crime. Cash is our last freedom and the only privacy we have. Too much cash and it's declared drug money and seized. Folks really have no idea how much privacy they gave up.

Just to add some history, one of Chicago's most notorious gangsters, AL Capone , was busted for taxes because they couldn't catch him any other way. His spending habits hung him.

 

[Alexx1401]

No, more like I have no reason to believe or disbelieve him at this point so that works out to an even chance that it could go either way

When something like this happens I take anything said by the guy who got this much attention with a large grain of salt. Also take anything some media source prints with a bucket of salt.

 

[CamoDeafie]

When something like this happens I take anything said by the guy who got this much attention with a large grain of salt. Also take anything some media source prints with a bucket of salt.

More salt than the Dead Sea, for media reports then?

 

[Ura-Ki]

The three video reports I saw all took a pretty neutral approach to this "Story" which is smart, considering nobody knows what really went down and why! It's enough to say that, if this dude was really under servilance for 2+ years, something up! If he cheated on his taxes, that's on him, if he sold illegal items, he owns it 100%, the rest is questionable! Did he sell a bunch of firearms and ammo to known cartel members or illegals, weather or not he knew it, or was he somehow trafficking out of his store? These questions might answer why the multi agency response, and with the IRS as lead agency, we can narrow down the potential crimes somewhat!

 

[Yarome]

Speculation without evidence...

I believe that's why it's called "speculation". There is no concrete evidence... but it's in line with what we "do" know.

The intent of the current whitehouse admin is to weaponize the alphabets with a zero tolerance policy. They have flat out said as much. If they had their way there would be a legal registry, universal BGC, weapons bans, insurance requirements, unfounded firearm seizures (in the form of red flag laws... the list goes on an on.

Common sense dictates that one of the first steps in being able to enforce those policies is propagating up to date firearm owner information whenever possible.

They already got their hand caught in the cookie jar with the FOIA documents and even their own oversight body found them to be in possession of over 250k illegally obtained firearm owner records... and ordered to delete them.

It may not be the sole reason in this particular case, but it does stand to reason that if they can finagle a way to obtain an FFL;s 4473's, when the opportunity presents itself, it's not likely they would simply pass that up... entirely on the up and up or not.

 

[msgriff]

Interesting story from Cascade County (Great Falls is in Cascade Co) that happened last September. During a gun show at the county fairgrounds, people reported a suspicious person in a vehicle with Canadian tags watching and taking pictures. The Sheriff (ex Dem, now red-pilled) came out to investigate, found out it was an RCMP Mountie who was working with the ATF. The Sheriff kicked the dude off the property.
MT ABC news

 

[CamoDeafie]

The three video reports I saw all took a pretty neutral approach to this "Story" which is smart, considering nobody knows what really went down and why! It's enough to say that, if this dude was really under servilance for 2+ years, something up! If he cheated on his taxes, that's on him, if he sold illegal items, he owns it 100%, the rest is questionable! Did he sell a bunch of firearms and ammo to known cartel members or illegals, weather or not he knew it, or was he somehow trafficking out of his store? These questions might answer why the multi agency response, and with the IRS as lead agency, we can narrow down the potential crimes somewhat!

And we wont know until long after the guy loses his license, business, and any shred of dignity.

I believe that's why it's called "speculation". There is no concrete evidence... but it's in line with what we "do" know.

The intent of the current whitehouse admin is to weaponize the alphabets with a zero tolerance policy. They have flat out said as much. If they had their way there would be a legal registry, universal BGC, weapons bans, insurance requirements, unfounded firearm seizures (in the form of red flag laws... the list goes on an on.

Common sense dictates that one of the first steps in being able to enforce those policies is propagating up to date firearm owner information whenever possible.

They already got their hand caught in the cookie jar with the FOIA documents and even their own oversight body found them to be in possession of over 250k illegally obtained firearm owner records... and ordered to delete them.

It may not be the sole reason in this particular case, but it does stand to reason that if they can finagle a way to obtain an FFL;s 4473's, when the opportunity presents itself, it's not likely they would simply pass that up... entirely on the up and up or not.

Innocent unless proven beyond reasonable doubt. Sure seems that basic principle have gone out of the window regarding FFLs and the Feds.


One thing though. 4473 info including terms such as but not limited to; 5.56, .300BLK, .308, 7.62x39. 5.45x39, "AR"/"AK"/Sig/similar pistols all could lead them to buyers of such firearms because the reasonable assumption is that all of these are "large frame pistols" and very likely have or had pistol braces attached to them...

 

[Mono1]

it was over taxation that started the revolution, governments never learn.

Well. It was over taxation that was a very big irritant and is what they teach the kids nowadays as the cause.

But. The first shot wasn't fired until they came to confiscate our firearms.

April 19th, 1775.

.

 

[Koda]

Question:
if this was an IRS audit, wouldnt the 4473 forms match the sales reciepts for guns sold? or rather, for every gun sale receipt there should be a 4473 form?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Question:
if this was an IRS audit, wouldnt the 4473 forms match the sales reciepts for guns sold? or rather, for every gun sale receipt there should be a 4473 form?

The 4473 provides firearms info but could be multiple firearms for one transaction; and the sales receipt might only say "firearm 1 $xxxx" , "firearm 2 $xxxx" and so on. Again. Depending on the State; if it's private transfer, then sales receipt only should show "private transfer fee" and "background check fee"

But then again, since it happened in Montana, and theres no Federal bill/law I know of that practically bans private face to face transfers without FFL involvement/Universal BG Check..

 

[Yarome]

Question:
if this was an IRS audit, wouldnt the 4473 forms match the sales reciepts for guns sold? or rather, for every gun sale receipt there should be a 4473 form?

Yup. It would verify actual physical purchases recorded in their financials. It's "reasonable", but if the facts are true... they weren't on the warrant so they had no legal authority to seize those records. It might have been an oversight, but if they've been investigating the FFL for more than 2 years, they undoubtedly knew they wanted those records and should have had them on the warrant.

Just guessing, but whatever judge signed off on the warrant may not have allowed it. If their probable cause was financial misconduct I can see where a judge might not want to sign off on 4473's... being out of the scope of the investigation since those records don't actually contain any financial information.

That doesn't mean they couldn't still push for them and maybe employ some intimidation tactics... which it appears they did... and it worked.

What really shoulda happened was for them to get the FFL's financials, provide proof of impropriety and then based on evidence subpoena additional supporting documentation (4473's) to prove their case. The FFL simply handing them over only served to make their job easier... if in fact he is guilty of something. If not, then it's still a win for the feebs to lay hands on those records for their own purposes.