10mm and 45acp for hunting or bear protection

[EPS]

I generally don't watch sponsored hunting but checked out that 100yd shot wildebeest, thats a pretty big animal and was a really good shot. I have a box of the Double Tapp ammo he used it produces about 750ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. It went clean thru the wildebeest at 100yds... kinda skeptical to believe but I saw the vid. Comparing this info to the Paul Harrell video I shared I think the only big difference between the 10 and the 45 is the distance, at 100yds most full pressure (original/normal) loads have as much energy as the 45 does at the muzzle.

I watch the show every once in awhile lol your right though they are basically one big commercial for what company sponsor them he's buddies with Ted Nugent so you know how it goes he kills a animal then gets all wacko hehehe the only reason I mentioned that show is because he uses a 10mm all the time

 

[EPS]

I liked the video we got some good info from it for one .both the 10mm and the 45 are good defense rounds against all most anything and #2 we also know that if you're ever in s defense shooting keep your mouth shut till your attorney gets there like it says in your USCCA hand book I feared for my life and was forced to shoot him I will give a full statement when my lawyer is present

 

[ArtBrownSr]

Okay. I get everything that's being discussed and I'm appreciative of everything I can learn from.

Here's the deal. Most "performance" ammo in 10mm is hollow point. There's no soft point ammo available that I know of, so the Buffalo Bore lead and Underwood lead, and maybe a couple others are the only "performance" ammo available in a non-hollow point. I'm an advocate of, if the bullet is big enough to start with, it doesn't have to expand. The terminal ballistic test in the video of the .45 ball ammo bore this out. The trade off is devastating damage with less penetration, or less devastation but with increased penetration. That's where the hard hitters come in. A .44 or .45, in a solid lead design, still creates a substantial wound channel with tremendous penetration. That's my preference.

I was at the range sometime recently, and there happened to be another shooter that was a retiree of some capacity as an instructor with the FBI. I had this same discussion with him. They had trade off concerns also, between solid and hollow point bullets, so they loaded their magazines every other round with hollow points and solids.

Seems simple enough, but if you were claiming you were carrying a gun for large game hunting, in Oregon, ball ammo is not legal. So that's where a guy gets roped into carrying hollow points, unless again you step up to Buffalo Bore hard cast ammo. I also understand, if your gun is purely carried as defense, the ball ammo discussion could be moot, unless the State really did want to charge you with something. If you were carrying any firearm in a big game area, and you did have a hunting license and tag for the big game in the area, and you were loaded with hard ball, I think they'd have a case against you.

Where is all this going? I like "performance" ammo in a 10mm, but I wish there was a less explosive bullet option than hollow point, as in soft point. Otherwise, the Buffalo Bore and similar hardcast might be the only legal option.

My thoughts( Arguments ) on this is:
IF you are carrying the handgun in a chest holster or easy access hip holster ( my hip holster is often NOT QUICKLY AVAILABLE because of other gear and clothing I'm carrying, so I carry in an "Alaskan rig" Alaskan Chest Holster - Bing images alaskan rig holster - Bing images) when you are hunting and NOT RIGGED with a scope, and carrying a standard(acceptable ) rifle for the game you are hunting. You could probably win as your handgun is for close action self defense where your rifle is the firearm of choice for acquiring the game animal.

 

[EPS]

I like this style

 

[EPS]

But this is the one I want lol

 

[ArtBrownSr]

This is the one I'm getting next for my 10 mm Rock Island Rock Double Stack:
Gen 2-MTU 1911 Holsters for the 1911 - Man Gear Alaska

 

[Certaindeaf]

Elmer Keith wouldn't shoot rabbits, let alone bigger game with ball. what the heck, people?

 

[DenimChicken]

Federal makes a bonded JSP in 10mm.
Federal Premium Vital-Shok Ammo 10mm Auto 180 Grain Trophy Bonded

And there are plenty of makers of lead.

 

[Koda]

Federal makes a bonded JSP in 10mm.
Federal Premium Vital-Shok Ammo 10mm Auto 180 Grain Trophy Bonded

And there are plenty of makers of lead.

nice, thank you for sharing that. Its been a while since Ive looked around I'll have to check out more but that Federal load is just what I want for woods use.

 

[WAYNO]

I also didn't know or didn't remember that Federal load. That's also what I would prefer as a load. In other loadings, the Federal Premium Vital Shok et al., has been scarce, if not impossible to find.

 

[Koda]

whats odd is if I recall the last time I looked (admit its been a while), Federal 10mm was always one of the weaker watered down "FBI loads" and so I moved on...

I'll have to pick up a few boxes of that load now...
Federal Premium Ammunition - Handgun

 

[Alexx1401]

nice, thank you for sharing that. Its been a while since Ive looked around I'll have to check out more but that Federal load is just what I want for woods use.

That looks like a mean damn load for the 10. since right now my only 10 is a PCC That looks like a great load for that. Soon as I get the stuff to roll some ammo a slug like that looks like just the thing.

 

[Alexx1401]

I also didn't know or didn't remember that Federal load. That's also what I would prefer as a load. In other loadings, the Federal Premium Vital Shok et al., has been scarce, if not impossible to find.

They show it now at Midway, and even better Academy. Academy it's free shipping at the same price. Looks like a mean damn load.

 

[WAYNO]

Elmer Keith wouldn't shoot rabbits, let alone bigger game with ball. what the heck, people?

I was never advocating shooting any animal with ball. Just was preferring a bullet less explosive than hollow points.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I was never advocating shooting any animal with ball. Just was preferring a bullet less explosive than hollow points.

I hear you, it was a stand-alone statement not directed at your post.. though your post did come just before. That was just a coincidence. It seemed to me that some here, as has gone on forever, are advocating ball for defense and or hunting bigger game.

 

[Alexx1401]

I hear you, it was a stand-alone statement not directed at your post.. though your post did come just before. That was just a coincidence. It seemed to me that some here, as has gone on forever, are advocating ball for defense and or hunting bigger game.

In the larger (like 45) I have always used something "better", but of course better means either rolling it or paying more, some times a lot more. So of course for practice / fun it's always been ball. Also keep a good pile of ammo for the "just in case" and it's of course the practice stuff. That video made me feel a lot different about if I had to use the ball in a defensive case. Stuff looks to be not nearly as shabby as I had thought.

 

[Koda]

It seemed to me that some here, as has gone on forever, are advocating ball for defense and or hunting bigger game.

No, not at all. Apologies if anything came across that way, I just found the information in the video interesting and worth discussion. I don't advocate FMJ for defense and in Oregon its not legal for hunting. It was just interesting that its virtually equally effective is all compared to hollowpoints.... but it doesn't look like it even comes close in performance to premium hunting loads like the Double Tapp or the Federal, which is what were recommending for hunting/bear defense.

 

[The Heretic]

Ammo selection, especially with regards to the projectile design and construction, can make a big difference - as can bullet placement.

The 10mm is a bit more powerful, but it also has some advantage in sectional density; all else being equal (same construction, same velocity), a smaller diameter projectile of the same mass will tend to penetrate better. Of course, there are diminishing returns and other factors.

Then there is mass. The old heavy v. light debate. IMO it depends on the target. There is of course over penetration. For the typical human expansion is desirable but you also want to reach vital organs. OTOH, humans are built lighter than the typical bear and humans usually are attacking standing up.

Shooting a charging bear probably means that the bear will be facing you and be down on all fours, not on its hind legs - so you need to be able to penetrate the skull and or the front shoulders, which will typically mean you want a projectile that can penetrate heavy bones and probably some heavy musculature. So more mass and a projectile that will hold together would probably be desired. This is doubly true with a brown bear v. a black bear, the former being much more massive/stronger and heavily built.

Personally, for wild animal protection, if I carry (I rarely do) I carry a .44 magnum revolver. Where I live there are only black bears, but they have come within 100' of my house. Cougars too. I carry 200 grain 1000 fps loads here as I think these are a decent load for just about anything I am likely to encounter. I could carry a .45 ACP with a similar load and 13 rounds instead of six, but I like my revolver better than a Glock and I just am not that threatened by the wildlife - been here 5 years now with no wildlife attacks and I don't anticipate any. Also, I can setup the revolver to start with 200 grain loads and end with much more powerful loads.

Feral or pet dogs - yes, people let their dogs run loose and those dogs are often not afraid of humans. I have seen one dog on dog attack while the attacked dog was being walked by its owner.

 

[orygun]

whats odd is if I recall the last time I looked (admit its been a while), Federal 10mm was always one of the weaker watered down "FBI loads" and so I moved on...

My sentiments exactly. I was really disappointed in that red box of ammo. It wasn't cheap, either! Then I shot the "good stuff". Wish I'd not sold that 357.

I was never advocating shooting any animal with ball. Just was preferring a bullet less explosive than hollow points.

There are times I would! If you're packing a handgun that's on the light end of the "needed" power level, hardball or alternating between hardball and HP ammo isn't a bad idea.

Heretic also touched on bullet weight and sectional density. The 10, with the smaller diameter, longer bullet will penetrate better. I think a better comparison of a 45 to a 10 would use "standard" bullet wights for each caliber, 180gr in 10 and a 230 in 45. Then the 45 looks like a slow pig, but it hits hard and does it's job, penetrating pretty darn well. I know that the 10mm with the right ammo will out step the 45 in power and range, but you gotta get that right ammo or you've lost that advantage.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

.45 ACP Ball ammo is very effective ...Just ask Sgt. York.
That said...
There are loads ( pun intended ) better choices out there for hunting and self-defense.
As always it pays to do your homework and find out what works best for you , your pistol and your situation.
Andy