10mm and 45acp for hunting or bear protection

[Koda]

Here is a favorite fun video by Paul Harrell comparing the effectiveness of the 10mm and 45acp for protection against lions tigers and bears oh my. I almost put this in the hunting section since many people who hunt consider the 10mm an option but there are also many people who choose a 10mm or 45 for "woods gun" for protection against bears. Anyways...

The takeaway from this vid I thought interesting to share, in both calibers he compared cheap Remington UMC FMJ ammo and Sig Sauer premium self defense hollowpoints. He shows you real velocities and then a practical test on simulating shooting a thick skinned heavy boned animal (like a bear) with improvised beef ribs and 2 watermelons ("lungs") and shows you the results. Useful practical information.

What I found interesting was that while both the 10mm and 45acp proved devastating they did so with the cheap UMC FMJ ammo as well. I was also surprised by how much penetration the hollowpoints achieved. It makes me wonder if these expensive hunting loads for 10mm and 45acp are really necessary vs. good ol cheap FMJ? thoughts?

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[L84Cabo]

Good vid! Thanks for posting!

 

[orygun]

I'm not sure what we learned about the deceased dog owner, but the rest was pretty straight forward and interesting.
I, too, am very surprised with the results from shooting with hardball. Just amazing.

 

[Alexx1401]

Here is a favorite fun video by Paul Harrell comparing the effectiveness of the 10mm and 45acp for protection against lions tigers and bears oh my. I almost put this in the hunting section since many people who hunt consider the 10mm an option but there are also many people who choose a 10mm or 45 for "woods gun" for protection against bears. Anyways...

The takeaway from this vid I thought interesting to share, in both calibers he compared cheap Remington UMC FMJ ammo and Sig Sauer premium self defense hollowpoints. He shows you real velocities and then a practical test on simulating shooting a thick skinned heavy boned animal (like a bear) with improvised beef ribs and 2 watermelons ("lungs") and shows you the results. Useful practical information.

What I found interesting was that while both the 10mm and 45acp proved devastating they did so with the cheap UMC FMJ ammo as well. I was also surprised by how much penetration the hollowpoints achieved. It makes me wonder if these expensive hunting loads for 10mm and 45acp are really necessary vs. good ol cheap FMJ? thoughts?

Thanks for posting that. Normally I am not much for these kind of things but I did like the way he did that one. The results were certainly interesting too. Makes me look at ball ammo in both the .45 & 10mm in a different light here.
As for price he answered his own point. 10mm is higher now because there still is not nearly as much. That hopefully will change. One of the things Santa got me is another case of S&B 10mm. Place in OK I don't think I had ever heard of, SG, had best price I could find. $301 to my door in a week. Will be buying more ammo from them. Be curious to see something like this video done in a PCC too. Since my 10mm is a PCC that will also shoot .45.

 

[Alexx1401]

I'm not sure what we learned about the deceased dog owner, but the rest was pretty straight forward and interesting.
I, too, am very surprised with the results from shooting with hardball. Just amazing.

I had not heard the guy who shot the dog owner being let go. Was glad to hear that. From what I had read it always sounded to me like he was railroaded. Interesting that it caused a change in the law there too. I used to live in that state long ago. another "high profile" shooting also lead to a huge change in state law. Making it much more pro gun owner. Don't know if it's been watered down since then.

 

[Koda]

Makes me look at ball ammo in both the .45 & 10mm in a different light here.

same here. The thing to look for is a flat nosed (meplat?) FMJ which would give better penetration in any round thru thick skin and heavy bone. The 10mm holds the advantage with that because every cheap FMJ 10mm target load Ive seen have all been flat nosed but I think you have to step down in grains to get that in 45. I know Remington UMC offers a flat nosed 45 FMJ in 185g.

 

[Alexx1401]

same here. The thing to look for is a flat nosed (meplat?) FMJ which would give better penetration in any round thru thick skin and heavy bone. The 10mm holds the advantage with that because every cheap FMJ 10mm target load Ive seen have all been flat nosed but I think you have to step down in grains to get that in 45. I know Remington UMC offers a flat nosed 45 FMJ in 185g.

Yes I have wondered that for a while. I always preferred the "Kieth type" from early days. Used to roll my own to get them in .45. Did not mind going to the 185 or so since they gave more velocity. First thing I noticed when the 10 and then 40 came out was it seemed everything was the SWC design. Win makes this in the White Box loading too. I was going to buy some more .45 next week. Think I will throw in a half case of the Win WB in this configuration. It's a little more expensive than the 230 but not that much more.

 

[JunkCollector]

While I like the .45, it is not what I carry when I am out where bears are. Smallest I have ever carried is my .44mag.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The 9mm is just as powerful.

 

[P7M13]

The 9mm is just as powerful.

Gee, I think the .380 is too.

10mm in the woods. 45 in the city.

Watching the video, you could see the 10mm kicked significantly more.
If he can see the FPS from 21', I'm impressed !

 

[Stomper]

The 9mm is just as powerful.

Yup, right up there with the nine-eleventy in a 50 round clip that empties in less than half a second with that pop-up shoulder thingy....

 

[WAYNO]

Okay. I get everything that's being discussed and I'm appreciative of everything I can learn from.

Here's the deal. Most "performance" ammo in 10mm is hollow point. There's no soft point ammo available that I know of, so the Buffalo Bore lead and Underwood lead, and maybe a couple others are the only "performance" ammo available in a non-hollow point. I'm an advocate of, if the bullet is big enough to start with, it doesn't have to expand. The terminal ballistic test in the video of the .45 ball ammo bore this out. The trade off is devastating damage with less penetration, or less devastation but with increased penetration. That's where the hard hitters come in. A .44 or .45, in a solid lead design, still creates a substantial wound channel with tremendous penetration. That's my preference.

I was at the range sometime recently, and there happened to be another shooter that was a retiree of some capacity as an instructor with the FBI. I had this same discussion with him. They had trade off concerns also, between solid and hollow point bullets, so they loaded their magazines every other round with hollow points and solids.

Seems simple enough, but if you were claiming you were carrying a gun for large game hunting, in Oregon, ball ammo is not legal. So that's where a guy gets roped into carrying hollow points, unless again you step up to Buffalo Bore hard cast ammo. I also understand, if your gun is purely carried as defense, the ball ammo discussion could be moot, unless the State really did want to charge you with something. If you were carrying any firearm in a big game area, and you did have a hunting license and tag for the big game in the area, and you were loaded with hard ball, I think they'd have a case against you.

Where is all this going? I like "performance" ammo in a 10mm, but I wish there was a less explosive bullet option than hollow point, as in soft point. Otherwise, the Buffalo Bore and similar hardcast might be the only legal option.

 

[Koda]

Where is all this going? I like "performance' ammo in a 10mm, but I wish there was a less explosive bullet option than hollow point, as in soft point. otherwise, the Buffalo Bore and similar hardcast might be the only legal option.

Corbon used to... I actually have 2 1/2 boxes of the stuff still (shot a few). PN: CB10180BC/20. 180gr Bonded Core soft point, Velocity: 1320, 700ft lbs energy.
I don't know why they stopped making them or why they were the only ones to do it.

I also agree with you that if your going to carry either of these calibers for bear defense then why not buy some hardcast loads. Makes sense, but the thing I don't like about this specialty ammo is its expensive to test and validate in your gun and those hardcast loads are all lead so you have to clean your barrel before switching back to jacketed ammo. The latter is mostly minor inconvenience.

so the surprising thing about the video was just how well cheap FMJ worked, it does make one wonder if these "magic bullets" are over rated. At the end of the day all I can say is the last thing Id want to do is try to kill a black bear with any handgun. Ive done it with a high powered rifle and can tell you from that experience that if you don't sever a CNS hit on your first shot your going to have a physical fight on your hands.

 

[Colts4me]

Was reading Oregon regs and it says full Metal jacket or military ammo is illegal to hunt with. Maybe I don't understand it right but it sounds like a lead bullet is legal to hunt with otherwise black powder guns wouldn't be legal. There are all kinds of non military ammo out there that don't have hollow points.

40 Caliber / 10mm (.400 - .401) - Handgun Bullets - Metallic Reloading - Graf & Sons

 

[orygun]

Was reading Oregon regs and it says full Metal jacket or military ammo is illegal to hunt with. Maybe I don't understand it right but it sounds like a lead bullet is legal to hunt with otherwise black powder guns wouldn't be legal. There are all kinds of non military ammo out there that don't have hollow points.

Correct. FMJ is illegal to hunt with. The bullet has to be exposed lead tip, hollow point or lead.
If carrying a handgun for personal protection while hunting with a rifle or bow, I wouldn't worry about what bullet was in my handgun as it's not the hunting weapon.

 

[Koda]

Corbon used to... I actually have 2 1/2 boxes of the stuff still (shot a few). PN: CB10180BC/20. 180gr Bonded Core soft point, Velocity: 1320, 700ft lbs energy.
I don't know why they stopped making them or why they were the only ones to do it.

oh it just dawned on me... it disappeared sometime after they invented the 400 Corbon round. I don't think its a long shot to suggest they didn't want to prove their 400 Corbon round was inferior to the 10mm. Since they still sell 400 Corbon, I don't think they will ever bring it back. But I just looked and see they sell a 10mm round thats 200g FMJ with a hardcast lead core for penetration for hunting. 10mm Auto 200gr Hunter RNPN

 

[EPS]

Any body know how long the barrel is on a Glock 10mm and Glock 45 is a 1911 barrel longer or I guess you could buy a after market barrel for a Glock that is longer I bet there would be a difference maybe not much but there would be more FPS

 

[cigars]

Yup, right up there with the nine-eleventy in a 50 round clip that empties in less than half a second with that pop-up shoulder thingy....

Hmmm, thems sounds like evil features there...

 

[EPS]

I was just wondering anybody watch that hunting show called RAZOR DOBBS ALIVE he uses a Dan Wesson 1911 in 10mm and some times he has a longer barrel on it but he uses DOUBLE TAPP AMMO hard cast bullets and he kills everything with it even Buffalo in Africa .

 

[Koda]

I was just wondering anybody watch that hunting show called RAZOR DOBBS ALIVE he uses a Dan Wesson 1911 in 10mm and some times he has a longer barrel on it but he uses DOUBLE TAPP AMMO hard cast bullets and he kills everything with it even Buffalo in Africa .

I generally don't watch sponsored hunting but checked out that 100yd shot wildebeest, thats a pretty big animal and was a really good shot. I have a box of the Double Tapp ammo he used it produces about 750ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. It went clean thru the wildebeest at 100yds... kinda skeptical to believe but I saw the vid. Comparing this info to the Paul Harrell video I shared I think the only big difference between the 10 and the 45 is the distance, at 100yds most full pressure (original/normal) loads have as much energy as the 45 does at the muzzle.