What’s with the 9mm pcc’s and 9mm AR pistols gaining favor for serious work?

[CamoDeafie]

Carbine, Machine, Sten, 9mm Mk 2

Carbine, Machine, Sten, 9mm Mk 2, skeleton butt, re-barrelled, magazine housing adapted to take PPS 43 magazine

www.iwm.org.uk

"Sten Machine carbine"

Sterling Police carbine

Owen Machine Carbine

Army and Weapons | Owen Machine Carbine | The Owen machine carbine machine gun was invented by Australia 24 years Evelyn Owen. Mutati...

deadlyweapons-army.blogspot.com

Aussie Owen Machine carbine

Historical Firearms - Viper Machine Pistol In April 1944, the British...

Viper Machine Pistol In April 1944, the British General Staff issued a set of specifications for all future machine carbine (submachine guns) to meet. In order to be considered for adoption the weapon must weigh less than 6lb (2.7kg) unloaded, fire at 600 rounds-per-minute and have a 30-60...

www.historicalfirearms.info

British spexs called for a "machine carbine" for a gun that the Germans called a machine pistol
And what we call as Submachine guns

 

[CamoDeafie]

Traditionally Carbine was the shortest length rifle in service. that usually meant 16" until the M4 came along. Not much difference. It never meant 5"

List of Colt AR-15 and M16 rifle variants - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Colt models 605, and 650 came out in the 1960s and 1970s before the XM4 of the 1980s

The XM177 is a 10" barreled SMG from Vietnam era thats also called a carbine

 

[wired]

And the ATF would consider and force you to consider all of the either machine guns or in the normal world Short Barrel Rifles

 

[CamoDeafie]

And the ATF would consider and force you to consider all of the either machine guns or in the normal world Short Barrel Rifles

The ATF has no definition of "carbine" anyhow

Honestly, repealing most of NFA 1934 would go a long way towards normalizing "SBR/SBS/AOWs"( like thats gonna happen with the politicians we have....)

The US military already have "carbines" as having shorter than 20" barrels, yes, but not necessarily meaning "16" barreled" because that is only to get around the SBR limits for civilian semiautomatics

Otherwise, its all depending on what companies calls carbines, and what shooting competition rules call for

When you have a "pistol" whose OAL is more than 26"; be it 5.56, .300blk, or handgun rounds; it sorta makes sense to call this class a "PCC" even though they don't have regular shoulder stocks?

I do agree with your premise that the term "pcc"is being tossed around a bit casually for anything thats not shoulder stocked

 

[CamoDeafie]

This term probably the best for the type of guns we're seeing nowadays...
handgun caliber rifle or pistol caliber rifle

 

[Whisky Tahoe]

With all this discussion on guns for trucks, maybe we're missing an opportunity here for Trucks that are guns?


Ok so we're not quite there yet so maybe we just need more guns in the truck



And finally maybe we should consider what happens if people start shooting at us

STREIT USA | ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER | ARMORED F350 APC

The F350 armored personnel carrier is one of the toughest 4x4 work trucks in its class, and it is available with a myriad of gun box configurations.

www.streitusa.com

We should consider armored trucks....

For now pistols, shotguns, and rifles all make sense to me with lots of trigger time to stay current.
"shooting is a perishable skill" - Jack Reacher

 

[Alexx1401]

A "carbine" by its very definition is a shouldered firearm with a shorter barrel than a "rifle"

That the ATF defines a rifle as having a minimum of 16" barrel has no other bearing on the term "carbine", except for a SBR. The U.S. military classes the 14.5" barreled M4 as a carbine and the 20" M16 series as a rifle but the ATF classes these two lines as machine guns due to having select fire/automatic mode

I have been "guilty" of this ever since I built my first AR pistol. Since I have only ever used it with a brace it is to me a carbine. Never quite understood why this sets so many off hearing one of these called a PCC since to me it is just another of my PCC collection. If it was not for the brace I would have almost zero interest in having the pistol version of the AR's but again to each his own here. I guess I could refer to the AR pistols I put together as BOF for Bag of Fun, since to me they are just fun as all hell to use

 

[Alexx1401]

Carbine, Machine, Sten, 9mm Mk 2

Carbine, Machine, Sten, 9mm Mk 2, skeleton butt, re-barrelled, magazine housing adapted to take PPS 43 magazine

www.iwm.org.uk

"Sten Machine carbine"

Sterling Police carbine

Owen Machine Carbine

Army and Weapons | Owen Machine Carbine | The Owen machine carbine machine gun was invented by Australia 24 years Evelyn Owen. Mutati...

deadlyweapons-army.blogspot.com

Aussie Owen Machine carbine

Historical Firearms - Viper Machine Pistol In April 1944, the British...

Viper Machine Pistol In April 1944, the British General Staff issued a set of specifications for all future machine carbine (submachine guns) to meet. In order to be considered for adoption the weapon must weigh less than 6lb (2.7kg) unloaded, fire at 600 rounds-per-minute and have a 30-60...

www.historicalfirearms.info

British spexs called for a "machine carbine" for a gun that the Germans called a machine pistol
And what we call as Submachine guns

That was interesting that that gun was supposed to be semi but kept wanting to fire bursts for them. Surprised that was ok up there. Also sure looked strange seeing that with 5 round mags

 

[wired]

I have been "guilty" of this ever since I built my first AR pistol. Since I have only ever used it with a brace it is to me a carbine. Never quite understood why this sets so many off hearing one of these called a PCC since to me it is just another of my PCC collection. If it was not for the brace I would have almost zero interest in having the pistol version of the AR's but again to each his own here. I guess I could refer to the AR pistols I put together as BOF for Bag of Fun, since to me they are just fun as all hell to use

PCC is a misnomer when referencing a pistol. Its a pistol caliber carbine. Carbines are short rifles and rifles have buttstocks. It makes a difference when you start getting into competition. If you have a braced pistol most sanctioning bodies arent going to allow you to compete in rifle class unless you SBR it then merely by the act of removing the brace and installing the stock you are OK. Yes, Its dumb .

 

[Alexx1401]

PCC is a misnomer when referencing a pistol. Its a pistol caliber carbine. Carbines are short rifles and rifles have buttstocks. It makes a difference when you start getting into competition. If you have a braced pistol most sanctioning bodies arent going to allow you to compete in rifle class unless you SBR it then merely by the act of removing the brace and installing the stock you are OK. Yes, Its dumb .

<shrug> will matter none to me. Have zero interest in joining any shooting clubs to do competitions so I am safe there. As for the Brace I use it is pretty easy to see it was made with the idea in mind of how I use it. After I built the first pistol I took my 16" upper with me one trip to the range. Pined the longer upper onto that lower to try. To me it was just as good as the lower I have that is a standard Mil spec AR stock. So I will tend to just keep being one of those annying misnomer people that seem to for some reason irritate the purists I guess
If the SB4 braces were not so expensive I would buy one for every PCC I make from this point on as I like the design so much no matter what upper I am using.

 

[wired]

<shrug> will matter none to me. Have zero interest in joining any shooting clubs to do competitions so I am safe there. As for the Brace I use it is pretty easy to see it was made with the idea in mind of how I use it. After I built the first pistol I took my 16" upper with me one trip to the range. Pined the longer upper onto that lower to try. To me it was just as good as the lower I have that is a standard Mil spec AR stock. So I will tend to just keep being one of those annying misnomer people that seem to for some reason irritate the purists I guess
If the SB4 braces were not so expensive I would buy one for every PCC I make from this point on as I like the design so much no matter what upper I am using.

I drive a Lamborghini . Some people like to call it a Chevrolet truck but I call it a Lamborghini so that is what it is.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Warning History Nerd Alert....

Rifle ...
Short Rifle...
Carbine...

Can mean different things at different times , eras , places and just who is writing the definitions.

For instance in my favorite time period...1770's -1870's...
A rifle was rifled...except when it was not...as in a smooth rifle....
These looked liked rifles with a rear sight , and rifle style stocks and furniture...
But were made as a smooth bore.
Don't get me started on Rifled Muskets...LOL

Fast forward to the 19teens and early 1930's....
A short rifle was a rifle but with a short barrel....in 20-24 inch range...
Many if not most rifles had 30 inch barrels in this time period .
Both looked very similar in regards to stocks and such....

A carbine as a general rule had a barrel of 20 inches or less....

When a shoulder fired arm , shot a pistol cartridge ....And was select fire...
As a general rule the English called them , Machine Carbines...
The Germans a Machine Pistol...
And the Americans a Sub Machine-Gun....

I just call 'em Shootin' Irons...
Andy

 

[Alexx1401]

Warning History Nerd Alert....


I just call 'em shootin' irons...
Andy

Look at how many hand tools come to be known by one maker. Channel Locks and Vice Grips are great for this. No matter who makes them they are always known by the name that made them famouse

 

[Jcon268]

By definition a PCC is pistol caliber carbine. A 16" barrel rifle. Then theres pistols which arent PCC's and SBR's which are under 16" . The PCC term gets thrown around to include a lot of stuff that it doesnt really apply to.

If by carbine, you're referring to a carbine gas system I still don't see how it applies in the sense that blowback systems use no directed gas but I see what you're saying. Pistol caliber carbines in the sense you're talking about (16" or longer barrel) have further reduced validity in my opinion. Nothing wrong with people liking them or anything. It's just that they sacrifice one of the few advantages they offer. If I can shoot a 9mm out of a 5" barrel I see no reason to 11 extra inches of length.

Maybe one day they'll come out with a full blown glossary of modern day gun terminology so we can all be on the same page.

Edit: So I searched this article and while I understand some of the points the guy makes, I think he's kind of stretching his points a bit. He tries to say PCCs are easier to maneuver than a rifle but are they really? My bedside AR with a suppressor hanging off the end is as short as some of these PCCs and packs a lot more power. He then says PCCs are more fun to shoot than handguns. Are they really? I prefer to shoot my handgun because I find it more challenging of my abilities. He also says you can swap your pistol mags with your PCC but that's only true on some of them. I have no pistols that will accept a Colt 32 rd magazine.

12 Best Pistol-Caliber Carbines (PCC): 9mm & Beyond

Pistol-caliber carbines are some of the best home-defense & competition guns out there. See why they excel inside the home and some of our favorite picks.

www.pewpewtactical.com

 

[CamoDeafie]

If by carbine, you're referring to a carbine gas system I still don't see how it applies in the sense that blowback systems use no directed gas but I see what you're saying. Pistol caliber carbines in the sense your talking about (16" or longer barrel) have further reduced validity in my opinion. Nothing wrong with people liking them or anything. It's just that they sacrifice one of the few advantages they offer. If I can shoot a 9mm out of a 5" barrel I see no reason to 11 extra inches of length.

Maybe one day they'll come out with a full blown glossary of modern day gun terminology so we can all be on the same page.

If one can see 200-300 fps increase in muzzle velocity from pistol cartridges on 16" barrels, versus say 6 inches; then depending on the cartridge; it is a significant performance boost.
The only reason for 16" is because that is the shortest legal length allowed by the NFA1934 law for a shoulder mounted firearm, without needing NFA tax stamp and paperwork

That is also why arm/wrist braces for "pistols" are popular right now. The effectiveness/efficiency of a SBR without the tax stamp


On the other hand, the UK has some odd laws relating to legal handgun and shouldered arms(rifles/shotgun) barrel lengths.

 

[Jcon268]

If one can see 200-300 fps increase in muzzle velocity from pistol cartridges on 16" barrels, versus say 6 inches; then depending on the cartridge; it is a significant performance boost.
The only reason for 16" is because that is the shortest legal length allowed by the NFA1934 law for a shoulder mounted firearm, without needing NFA tax stamp and paperwork

That is also why arm/wrist braces for "pistols" are popular right now. The effectiveness/efficiency of a SBR without the tax stamp


On the other hand, the UK has some odd laws relating to legal handgun and shouldered arms(rifles/shotgun) barrel lengths.

Most of the pistol cartridges I use defensively are designed for expansion at fps that can be attained out of a shorter barrel so I give the credit to the design of the cartridge over the barrel. I see there could be reason to want extra fps but then we're back to the question of why not using a round that does it better?

I completely agree with the SBR minus the tax stamp. Anything that works against the web of infringements they've laid on gun owners.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Right, like I said, depending on the cartridge.

 

[flylo]

Look at Federal 147 gr.Hydra-Shok JHP from 5" vs to 16" = 65fps 1007 vs 1073 fps according to this chart not very much. BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results

 

[flylo]

Most of the pistol cartridges I use defensively are designed for expansion at fps that can be attained out of a shorter barrel so I give the credit to the design of the cartridge over the barrel. I see there could be reason to want extra fps but then we're back to the question of why not using a round that does it better?

I completely agree with the SBR minus the tax stamp. Anything that works against the web of infringements they've laid on gun owners.

Not true what about Mossberg shockwave 14" barrel 12 gauge firearms, several others make them also & they made a straight rifled rifle in a short barreled shockwave type firearm.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Look at Federal 147 gr.Hydra-Shok JHP from 5" vs to 16" = 65fps 1007 vs 1073 fps according to this chart not very much. BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results

Same page, look at real world weapons; interestingly, biggest jump is in the lightweight low recoil 135gr hydra shock JHP; from the Beretta 92 to 18" barrel.
No info on fps performance of +P+ or NATO 124gr FMJs though, although Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel seems decent...

On the other hand...

10mm Auto;

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 10mm Results

(statement of intent)

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com