What’s with the 9mm pcc’s and 9mm AR pistols gaining favor for serious work?

[Alexx1401]

If one can see 200-300 fps increase in muzzle velocity from pistol cartridges on 16" barrels, versus say 6 inches; then depending on the cartridge; it is a significant performance boost.
The only reason for 16" is because that is the shortest legal length allowed by the NFA1934 law for a shoulder mounted firearm, without needing NFA tax stamp and paperwork

That is also why arm/wrist braces for "pistols" are popular right now. The effectiveness/efficiency of a SBR without the tax stamp

YEP! I originally thought of the 9mm PCC's as something fun for the range as they used ammo I could buy cheap and the indoor range allowed. First 9mm was for Wife as the .40 I bought was too much for her. Then I saw what the really good 9mm ammo did in that 16 inch tube. I no longer looked at those 9mm's as a range fun gun only. .357 in a 4 inch tube with 125 SJHP was always as close as you could get to real "one shot stops" when they started keeping track of this stuff long ago. This of course did not include things like .44 mag as so few carried one of those. My beloved .45 was beat out by the .357. When I saw that the little 9mm rifle could give me the same power as those .357 rounds? Well I suddenly looked at that little rifle in a whole new light. Especially as I had 33 round mags for it and it was so damn short and light that it's great for around the home. If I ever manage to wear out that little Kel-Tec I will be buying one of the newer versions of it. Little rifle still impresses me when I let it out to the range now and then.
When I shoot one of the PCC's with those shoot'n See targets using even a cheap optic I often have other shooters stepping over to see me. They see those one large hole groups and at first think they have some "expert" on the range . Then they see it's because I have a shoulder fired gun. Damn I wish I could shoot a handgun with that kind of accuracy but that is never going to happen for me

 

[flylo]

That's exactly why I went to the 50 grain liberty that goes 2200 out of a 4" barrel but was told that was wrong I should use 147 Hydroshoks which I own, like & have used,

 

[CamoDeafie]

not mine but interesting info

Real world handloads, Starline brass, Accurate No. 7 powder, 17.5" barrel, straight blowback
100gr LeHigh Extreme Defense, 2,023 fps
115 gr LeHigh Extreme Defense, 1,784 fps

Starline Brass, Accurate No. 9, same gun obviously
150gr LeHigh Extreme Hunter, 1,478 fps


Now, I don't know what these same rounds woud do out of a 6" barreled 10mm handgun though.

 

[Unicykle]

I was under the impression with 9mm blow back systems anything over about 11" barrel actually decreased fps?

 

[CamoDeafie]

I was under the impression with 9mm blow back systems anything over about 11" barrel actualy decreased fps?

Diminishing returns The changes gets smaller over the lengths, but its still increasing up to a certain point.

 

[Unicykle]

not mine but interesting info

Real world handloads, Starline brass, Accurate No. 7 powder, 17.5" barrel, straight blowback
100gr LeHigh Extreme Defense, 2,023 fps
115 gr LeHigh Extreme Defense, 1,784 fps

Starline Brass, Accurate No. 9, same gun obviously
150gr LeHigh Extreme Hunter, 1,478 fps


Now, I don't know what these same rounds woud do out of a 6" barreled 10mm handgun though.

Most properly loaded 10mm is around 1200-1400 fps for 200-160gr bullet i got some 115gr rated at 1700 fps

 

[CamoDeafie]

Most properly loaded 10mm is around 1200-1400 fps for 200-160gr bullet i got some 115gr rated at 1700 fps

But it also has to do with powders, right? I mean, that was something he had to point out... so theres fast burn and slow burn powders

 

[Unicykle]

Diminishing returns The changes gets smaller over the lengths, but its still increasing up to a certain point.

But it also has to do with powders, right? I mean, that was something he had to point out... so theres fast burn and slow burn powders

unfortunatly most 10mm is loaded barley hotter than 40cal specs unless
You buy good ammo like underwood, and if im paying for 10mm i want the real thing.

 

[Jcon268]

Not true what about Mossberg shockwave 14" barrel 12 gauge firearms, several others make them also & they made a straight rifled rifle in a short barreled shockwave type firearm. View attachment 683125

Not sure how this contradicts what I said or makes it untrue.

 

[flylo]

I bought a pair of 454 Casull Raging Bulls which will eat my 10mm, 44 mags alive with 240grain 1900+ fps & 2000+ ft pds of energy but will shoot hot or mild 45 Long Colt & double action, 6.5" ported barrels, double latched cylinders. Here's a Gun Test article from 2000 that says if you need this much power buy a rifle. .454 Casulls: Too Much Power, Too Little Real-World Utility - Gun Tests

 

[CamoDeafie]

I bought a pair of 454 Casull Raging Bulls which will eat my 10mm, 44 mags alive with 240grain 1900+ fps & 2000+ ft pds of energy but will shoot hot or mild 45 Long Colt & double action, 6.5" ported barrels, double latched cylinders. Here's a Gun Test article from 2000 that says if you need this much power buy a rifle. .454 Casulls: Too Much Power, Too Little Real-World Utility - Gun Tests

Henry Big Boy in that caliber, 20" barrel... what FPS is it gonna give on the big .454 Casull loads?

 

[Alexx1401]

I was under the impression with 9mm blow back systems anything over about 11" barrel actualy decreased fps?

Do a search for velocity by the inch. Couple people have done up charts. Taking different ammo and cutting an inch at a time off to show what they chrono different ammo. It's one of the many urban myths that never die that hand gun ammo gets slower when you use a longer barrel. Started LONG before Al invented the net and like so many myths lives on. Many just keep repeating it even when you show them it's not how it works . Just like the myth about people flying off their feet when shot. That one too was retold to death so long many refused to believe it was not true even when you showed them its not how it works. Another was that original Texas Chainsaw movie. It was re told so long many would swear they remembered it in the news. It never happened. The author dreamed up the idea standing in line at a store oddly enough. Often people hear something for so long it's hard to believe their eyes when they see what they were told was wrong

 

[flylo]

Alexx I posted the link in post #278 & it's ballistics by the inch.

 

[osprey]

All right I got out and shot all my ar pistols and a glock 19 in a micro roni braced adapter. I did a non scientific redneck comparison to settle this once and for all
The test consisted of 5 ar pistols; 4" 22lr, 4.5" 9mm, 10.5" 5.56, 9"300blk, 11" 7.62x39 and just for giggles I put a glock 19 into a micro roni brace. All these had red dot sights except the 7.62x39, which had magpul flip ups. All were braced.
The test started by having firearm loaded with 10 rds laying on bench safety on. To begin I started stopwatch on phone and I picked up weapon disengaged safety and fired at a 1" black dot target at 25yds as fast as I could get back on target. When mag was empty I set firearm on table and hit the stopwatch. This was all in standing position. All platforms went through the 10 rds without failure. The only clear result I found is that I am no Jerry Miculek .The times and accuracies were remarkably similar with all platforms. The fastest time went to the 22lr at 11.8 seconds. The best group went to the 5.56 at just under 2". All times were between 11.8 and 13.7 seconds. All groups were 1.9 to 3.5" and on target. The best blend of speed and accuracy went to the 5.56. My beloved 11" 7.62x39 finished second overall with the second best group and 3rd best time even with irons, err I mean plastics. I expected a better group with the 22lr, as it has shown to be quite accurate. It may be it's weight as it is the lightest of the pack. A couple other things to note I just built the 10.5" 5.56 and this was my first time firing it other than 5 shots to get red dot dialed in. While the jP flash hider does a great job taming flash, the report was quite sharp and I would definitely not want to shoot this inside if at all possible. I think considering a suppressor on any of these would be a good idea but the 5.56 just had that extra sharp quality. Any of these platforms would be better at delivering shots on target that a handgun. Even the g19 in the micro roni brace was in the middle of the pack time wise and turned in a 3.5" group on target. There it is, my non scientific test, will it change my approach to hd ? not really. Happy.

 

[MrMillspecer]

I keep my PCC next to the ar15 and 12 gauge 870 in the open safe next to the bed. And a 9mm or .45acp on the nightstand. I sleep well.

 

[dwaineshort]

I love the caliber, it is offered in a multitude of platforms, cheap to shoot, accurate and most people can handle the recoil easily. But a decisive stopper round it is not. I see many threads here touting these pcc's and ar pistol builds for hd , truck guns and such. I get it if that is all you have available but at home or even in a vehicle, if you have the ability to have a larger platform than the typical auto pistol, why choose 9mm? I will give you the mag commonality argument and these platforms allowing for better accuracy but it is still a pistol round with limited lethality. I think the better choice for serious work would be a shotgun or sbr/pistol ar in 5.56 or 300blk or My choice 7.62x39. Of course a sbr/pistol AK would be great also. Let me have it, am I thinking wrong?

Almost 99% of all firearm deaths are from pistol caliber weapons. I would think that would make it more than efficient for home defense.

 

[osprey]

Almost 99% of all firearm deaths are from pistol caliber weapons. I would think that would make it more than efficient for home defense.

Misleading stat in my mind. I am sure pc weapons ( pistols in particular) make up a big majority in ownership. Also how many of these deaths were suicide or accidents from mis handling? This doesn't really point to a pistol caliber being the best for hd, it just means they are prevalent.

What I would say at this point is that a 9mm platform may be the best for some as a hd weapon and is certainly better than a baseball bat. For an out and about truck gun I still think it is a poor choice.

 

[flylo]

The study is called, "Deaths, Final Data for 2017."

According to the data, there were 38,882 deaths by firearms in 2017, and 23,854 were suicides. That comes to 61.4% - a little lower than Miyares' figure.

In addition to suicides, the statistics showed 14,542 of the gun deaths (37.4%) were murders, and 486 were accidental (1.2%).
Gun only account for about 5% of suicides in the US & Police kill about 1000 people per year by guns.

 

[MrMillspecer]

A .223 out of a 4" barrel has about the same energy as a 9mm out of the same length.

A 300 BO with a 9" barrel makes sense.

Ballistics by the inch

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

 

[CamoDeafie]

A .223 out of a 4" barrel has about the same energy as a 9mm out of the same length.

A 300 BO with a 9" barrel makes sense.

Ballistics by the inch

www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

But the fireball from the .223!

All that burning powder at the muzzle blast!