what if we stop arguing so hard and start looking for a common solution?

[Osarion]

you guys kill me. when I say we want the same thing its that we want crazy people to stop killing people. thats the same thing. if anyone disagrees with that fine, but I highly doubt it.

Now the way we go about solving the problem may differ but its something I think we can both work on or at least talk about. its clear people are getting crazier and more desperate and more apt to act. It may not be more frequent, but the impact is.

there is obviously much more history here that I have not been exposed to in terms of impacting gun owners rights, but that's not really what this post was about it was more about finding a solution. asking the question seems to get many wrapped around the axle and imply that gun rights are being jeopardized or reduced in some way. It's clear that from the answers thus far the solution lies outside of pro gun (which I am - obviously) a bit sad really.

some of you get it, most of you dont.

There is a culture of stonewalling on both sides of the argument. More people seem to be going the way of "the other side can't be reasoned with so I'm not even going to try". Some folks just quietly believe that way and go about voting from that mindset, others openly come out and say they won't be reasoned with/try to reason with the other side. Of course that gets nobody anywhere and is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting lalalala. Again, both sides are guilty of this.

Whether anti-gun people like it or not, the right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental principal of the United States. Whether pro 2A people like it or not, failing to engage in intelligent discourse just fuels the fire of the opponents and makes you look unable to defend your position.

The world is changing. Our strategies better be smart enough to keep up with the onslaught. I have been writing up a letter I plan to send to our senators and representatives -- mostly of the (D) persuasion -- to get them to open their eyes to the slow erosion of fundamental liberties. I will share it with the forum when it's ready, for anyone that cares to read it.

 

[tlfreek]

not really - but I appreciate your feedback. talking about solutions doesn't mean giving up rights, but it somehow gets construed that way. gun control is about keeping guns away from bad guys - and yes I know they'll get them anyway that's the argument, but this last guy got them legally. I am not asking for anyone who is like me and you upstanding in their community, pillar citizen etc to give up gun rights, but just posing a question what can we do... Some have responded with some suggestions, but most feel the question itself is an attack. it really does reinforce why if there is a solution or help to solve this particular problem - it wont come from this group or most likely the broader community. I have my question answered through four pages and rebuttals against a simple question.

What this discussion IS about is the loss of much of our 2nd rights! A little here, a little there adds up to over 22000 little cuts as of today! Those are rights we have surrendered. Unless we get those back, ALL OF THEM, there can be no solution, there can be no gun control! Think about that simple word CONTROL, Who exactly has that control? Not WE THE PEOPLE!!! I under stand your points, how can we move out of this never ending argument and find a reasonable solution? The simple answer is you cannot. The reason is equally simple, We the People are always on the losing end of any Hope and Change when the topic of Gun Control or anti 2nd argument comes up! Give us back all the rights we had taken at the State and Fed levels, then, and only then can we start talking about the real issues of gun violence, and how to stop it! This isn't even the biggest issue we face today, we stand upon the brink, and soon we will topple over the edge, WAR is coming! We have ISIS inside America, we have a Corrupt Gov monster, we have politicians willing to strip our rights, we have a very real threat from the far east and the middle east, And a war on Christians! Which WAR do you want to fight first? The biggest problem is we are going to be fighting them all at once, are you ready for that? That is the reality today we all face! Loosing our gun rights ( those we have that remain) are the only reasons we are still free, Somewhat! Soon, the very rights we fight for so strongly are going to be the only means of survival we have! So how do you see any hope of having any discussions about gun rights, gun violence, and gun control when we face what we see today?

 

[tlfreek]

BTW did anyone see the MOTOGP race this weekend in Assen? unbelievable

 

[Ura-Ki]

not really - but I appreciate your feedback. talking about solutions doesn't mean giving up rights, but it somehow gets construed that way. gun control is about keeping guns away from bad guys - and yes I know they'll get them anyway that's the argument, but this last guy got them legally. I am not asking for anyone who is like me and you upstanding in their community, pillar citizen etc to give up gun rights, but just posing a question what can we do... Some have responded with some suggestions, but most feel the question itself is an attack. it really does reinforce why if there is a solution or help to solve this particular problem - it wont come from this group or most likely the broader community. I have my question answered through four pages and rebuttals against a simple question.

Actually, you got several good imputs about how to stop the very things you are concerned about ( we all are) I and others had the idea of a licence sort of deal that could help, but again, that still dosn't stop the baddies from doing there evil deeds!

 

[tlfreek]

Actually, you got several good imputs about how to stop the very things you are concerned about ( we all are) I and others had the idea of a licence sort of deal that could help, but again, that still dosn't stop the baddies from doing there evil deeds!

correct -

 

[Slobray]

It's clear that from the answers thus far the solution lies outside of pro gun (which I am - obviously) a bit sad really.

it really does reinforce why if there is a solution or help to solve this particular problem - it wont come from this group or most likely the broader community. I have my question answered through four pages and rebuttals against a simple question.

You keep saying that "the solution" won't come from the gun rights community. Well, do you really believe that there is "solution"? And if you do, do you really believe that said "solution" lies with the other side?

I personally believe (as most have posted it this thread) that there is no solution to stop insane/bad people from committing heinous acts. As has been stated/shown too many times, in this thread and forum in general, the other side isn't concerned with stopping violent acts, they are committed to usurping the constitution and disarming the civilian populace. Since it is their agenda to rid our country of firearms, our main priority has to be stopping them. This looking for common ground has got us nothing but restrictions and will take us further down the road of disarmament in the future.


Ray

(edited to delete extra words)

 

[Bazooka Joe]

The US homicide rate is at a 51 year low, so we're obviously doing something right. It has been declining since the federal assault weapons ban expired in 1994 (coincidence?). Over 200,000,000 NICS checks have been done since that year. One might well say that more guns does mean less homicide. So the problem to be addressed is not murders. That problem is in hand and declining. Violent crime in general is down. There is debate among criminologists if there has been a spike in mass shootings. Indeed 8 of the highest 11 annual rates of mass shootings appear to have occurred during the AWB.

So maybe we should really be asking if there is a problem at all that needs to be addressed. Lowest homicide rate in 51 years seems pretty good to me. Oh, yeah, the problem is an anti-gun media, doing its best to whip up the masses into hate crimes against firearms owners.

 

[rick benjamin]

Fence mending
Grain sifting from tares
Herd culling

 

[PaulB47]

gun control is about keeping guns away from bad guys

What makes you think this? Because gun prohibitionists say so?

Consider the possibility that they are lying. That in their eyes, the more Orlandos the better (although preferably committed by a Christian and a conservative).

For heaven's sake, don't take everything a politician says at face value. If you accept as a basic premise this lie, then don't be surprised your ideas diverge from many around here.

Of course the ordinary man on the street, who is not a member of the ruling class, may honestly believe that gun control is about keeping guns away from bad guys. But honestly believing it does not make it so either. He is as much a victim of propaganda as you are.

Some people really ought to invest some time in studying the life of Edward Bernays.

 

[tlfreek]

What makes you think this? Because gun prohibitionists say so?

i am really at a loss here......seriously - I almost find it surreal.

 

[tlfreek]

You keep saying that "the solution" won't come from the gun rights community. Well, do you really believe that there is "solution"? And if you do, do you really believe that said "solution" lies with the other side?

I personally believe (as most have posted it this thread) that there is no solution to stop insane/bad people from committing heinous acts. As has been stated/shown too many times, in this thread and forum in general, the other side isn't concerned with stopping violent acts, they are committed to usurping the constitution and disarming the civilian populace. Since it is their agenda to rid our country of firearms, our main priority has to be stopping them. This looking for common ground has got us nothing but restrictions and will take us further down the road of disarmament in the future.


Ray

(edited to delete extra words)

Yes I believe there is a solution. most of the answers are helpless victim like responses and in fear of rights being jeopardized. Yes some have been good and what I expected to some degree, and I suspect I anticipated the bulk of the responses as well. guns kill but so do spoons if used in correctly, cars kill, bad guys will always have guns, people are crazy etc

It seems as though one of my points continues to be skipped over. I KNOW we will never stop all bad guys and crazy people - it's an unrealistic expectation. My question was around bad guys/crazy people buying guns legally - thats it - we cannot stop illegal behavior, but can we prevent guns from being purchased legally and getting into the wrong hands - that's it.

It's almost as if this community is ok with bad guys buying guns so our rights are not jeopardized. Actually its not almost it is. I think I just had my ah ha moment. We don't care. We basically comment from the sidelines when something horrific happens and point the finger at society and the government, not considering that times have changed.

this may sound like I'm anti gun, but far from it. IMO if you want to help minimize the damage and potential restrictions on guns, we need to think about how to create a solution - at the very least to keep bad guys from getting guns.

I will most likely not visit this thread any longer - its run its coarse.

I do appreciate the responses though -

thanks brothers.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Start enforcement of ALL 20k gun laws already on the books would be a start as would gutting the justice department of corruption.
Bring back the mental health programs that were scrapped years ago.

 

[etrain16]

It's almost as if this community is ok with bad guys buying guns so our rights are not jeopardized. Actually its not almost it is. I think I just had my ah ha moment. We don't care. We basically comment from the sidelines when something horrific happens and point the finger at society and the government, not considering that times have changed.

That comment right there just pisses me off, and that doesn't happen very often. What the heck gives you the right to make such an accusation of the people here?? Speak for yourself buddy and leave the accusations at home. There are 5 pages of conversation on this single thread. Many have suggested real solutions, solutions that you have dismissed out of hand because you personally don't like them. You also seem to care less about personal rights and freedom than you do some mythical promise that more laws will magically protect you.

You do not speak for me or anyone else on this board. I DO care. And I know damn well that the rest of the people care too. We don't want guns in the hands of bad guys, we're just realistic enough to know that there will never ever be a law that will stop bad guys from getting guns. As I stated in an earlier post - if they are a known bad guy, what the hell are they doing on the streets in the first place?? They should be in prison. But our damn system doesn't want them there. How the hell is another damn law supposed to stop them?

As for the Orlando shooter, who bought his guns legally, what fricking laws would you like added to the books to stop him? What damn 'compromise' did we fail to give to stop him? The guy was under FBI surveillance over the course of several years, and THEY, the precious government, those who promise they can protect us, restored his right to buy guns. So how the hell is that OUR problem???!! They blew it, we did not, yet you chastise the members here for not caring enough to do something?? I don't know what your issue is, but you're in no place to be making the call on whether or not we care about guns in the hands of criminals. If you bothered to read the topics of discussion on this board regularly, you would see that not only is gun safety a topic of regular discussion, but so is the disgust every time a gun is used in a crime. You whine about wanting US to compromise with the anti's - as if they have some magical solution. Well breaking news Jack, their solutions are failing - over and over. Gun free zones have become shooting galleries. Background checks have failed to stop many shooters, something they promised would work, and still want to expand. The fact remains that the anti's DON'T CARE about saving lives. They are only bleating about lives because it gives them the power to take our rights away. If you can't see that, then, my friend, you are being sadly mislead by some great liars.

I have more that I could say, but I'm leaving it with this last thought - your judgment of the intentions and desires of gun owners here in the NW and on this forum is most definitely misinformed and just plain wrong. It's bad enough I have to listen to lectures from the blowhard POTUS, I don't need to hear it from self-righteous, holier-than-thou citizens as well.

 

[PaulB47]

i am really at a loss here......seriously - I almost find it surreal.

Me too - that someone would take the pronouncements of his enemies, people infamous for their reliance on propaganda and emotionalism, at face value without question.

There is value in questioning things. Not that that always leads to refuting the conventional wisdom, but sometimes it does.

Do you think people in Congress, particularly those pushing gun control, care about ordinary folks? The same people, mind you, who go to war at the drop of a hat, because it benefits their cronies? What was it Madeleine Albright said, that it was "worth it" that half a million Iraqis were killed?

John Lott put together a study, the most comprehensive and actually scientific one out there, that came to the conclusion that more guns equals less crime. Don't you think people in Congress are aware of this study?

The reasonable conclusion is that gun prohibitionists don't care if ordinary people are killed. These are the people you are believing, when they claim gun control is about keeping guns from bad guys.

 

[PaulB47]

My question was around bad guys/crazy people buying guns legally - thats it - we cannot stop illegal behavior, but can we prevent guns from being purchased legally and getting into the wrong hands - that's it.

Yes, also keeping harmless people from purchasing legally, an unavoidable result of your proposal. And some of them will die because of that - waiting periods are great boons for the stalkers of women, for example.

And guns or some other lethal tool will still get into "wrong" hands.

 

[Jamie6.5]

you guys kill me. when I say we want the same thing its that we want crazy people to stop killing people. thats the same thing. if anyone disagrees with that fine, but I highly doubt it.

Now the way we go about solving the problem may differ but its something I think we can both work on or at least talk about. its clear people are getting crazier and more desperate and more apt to act. It may not be more frequent, but the impact is.

there is obviously much more history here that I have not been exposed to in terms of impacting gun owners rights, but that's not really what this post was about it was more about finding a solution. asking the question seems to get many wrapped around the axle and imply that gun rights are being jeopardized or reduced in some way. It's clear that from the answers thus far the solution lies outside of pro gun (which I am - obviously) a bit sad really.

some of you get it, most of you dont.

This is actually pretty simple for those willing to see the reality of what our country and the world and how Americans relate, And what that looks like (politically) these days.
We want sovereignty, with laws that reflect a system centered on the constitutional restrictions placed on government(s).
Our opponents however, see a different America. They see a future one with a system centered on globalism and global governance with restrictions on the individual, that caters to the collective.
One that surrenders a significant portion of its sovereignty to an elite ruling class, and to the wishes of people we used to compete with. Trade is no longer based on competitive enterprise, but a cooperative one.
Gun owners have capitulated for years, nearly a century, as more and more restrictions have been placed on the people and their rights, instead of on the government as the founders intended.

We as a country are trying to resist the U.N. model, because free thinking Americans don't like what that entails. But we the people keep electing members of the governing body that are buying into that, because they see it as the quickest path to personal enrichment. The elite foundations, businesses and entire tax-sheltered industries view this as "enlightenment."

BTW did anyone see the MOTOGP race this weekend in Assen? unbelievable

Nice slide. That's the perfect example of the "Bread and Circuses" rule of government that needs to subvert a stubborn populace.
Keep them distracted while we go about our dastardly subversion of the rule of law.

I suggest a course on American History, with a healthy dose of "Understanding the Constitution" 101.

 

[Lilhigbee]

Etrain, PaulB and Jamie, thank you!! I couldn't have said it better myself and would have gotten banned if I tried.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

I want to thank etrain16 for saying most of what I wanted to say, so this post can be shorter.

I KNOW we will never stop all bad guys and crazy people - it's an unrealistic expectation. My question was around bad guys/crazy people buying guns legally - thats it - we cannot stop illegal behavior, but can we prevent guns from being purchased legally and getting into the wrong hands - that's it.

I will most likely not visit this thread any longer - its run its coarse.

Why did you even start this thread? You obviously didn't want an open discussion as you have ignored perfectly valid responses to your question. First, you argue that bad/crazy people getting guns is the problem, when the problem is bad/crazy people. Those are two very different prospects. Then, you assume that there is law that will address your flawed argument. There isn't. No, that's not a failure of imagination; there simply isn't. The closest that you could possibly get would be a smart gun capable of reading the thoughts of the person picking up and determining if they were taking a morally defensible action -- but not morally defensible based on the thoughts being read (because they might be crazy), but some other third party's determination of what is morally defensible. Even if the mind reading technology were available, the evaluation part could never be, not in a way that wasn't fascist in itself.

The best law (an oxymoron) that we could have would require everyone to carry all the time and get training to do so. But that would be overly statist, too, and couldn't address the people who are simply too timid to respond to an active shooter.

Luckily, like I said in my last post, since we're at a 50 year low in homicides, things are all good, and the conversation is pretty pointless as a result.

 

[Slobray]

It seems as though one of my points continues to be skipped over. I KNOW we will never stop all bad guys and crazy people - it's an unrealistic expectation. My question was around bad guys/crazy people buying guns legally - thats it - we cannot stop illegal behavior, but can we prevent guns from being purchased legally and getting into the wrong hands - that's it.

Your question about "bad guys/crazy people buying guns legally", well, they can't, problem solved. If they are a known bad guy/crazy person they can't buy a gun legally.

Solutions to preventing guns "being purchased legally and getting into the wrong hands" would be break in proof houses, gun safes, cars, and the like. I don't think there could ever be such things, because people will always find a way and like you said "we cannot stop illegal behavior".



Ray

 

[OutlawHoss]

That comment right there just pisses me off, and that doesn't happen very often. What the heck gives you the right to make such an accusation of the people here?? Speak for yourself buddy and leave the accusations at home. There are 5 pages of conversation on this single thread. Many have suggested real solutions, solutions that you have dismissed out of hand because you personally don't like them. You also seem to care less about personal rights and freedom than you do some mythical promise that more laws will magically protect you.

You do not speak for me or anyone else on this board. I DO care. And I know damn well that the rest of the people care too. We don't want guns in the hands of bad guys, we're just realistic enough to know that there will never ever be a law that will stop bad guys from getting guns. As I stated in an earlier post - if they are a known bad guy, what the hell are they doing on the streets in the first place?? They should be in prison. But our damn system doesn't want them there. How the hell is another damn law supposed to stop them?

As for the Orlando shooter, who bought his guns legally, what fricking laws would you like added to the books to stop him? What damn 'compromise' did we fail to give to stop him? The guy was under FBI surveillance over the course of several years, and THEY, the precious government, those who promise they can protect us, restored his right to buy guns. So how the hell is that OUR problem???!! They blew it, we did not, yet you chastise the members here for not caring enough to do something?? I don't know what your issue is, but you're in no place to be making the call on whether or not we care about guns in the hands of criminals. If you bothered to read the topics of discussion on this board regularly, you would see that not only is gun safety a topic of regular discussion, but so is the disgust every time a gun is used in a crime. You whine about wanting US to compromise with the anti's - as if they have some magical solution. Well breaking news Jack, their solutions are failing - over and over. Gun free zones have become shooting galleries. Background checks have failed to stop many shooters, something they promised would work, and still want to expand. The fact remains that the anti's DON'T CARE about saving lives. They are only bleating about lives because it gives them the power to take our rights away. If you can't see that, then, my friend, you are being sadly mislead by some great liars.

I have more that I could say, but I'm leaving it with this last thought - your judgment of the intentions and desires of gun owners here in the NW and on this forum is most definitely misinformed and just plain wrong. It's bad enough I have to listen to lectures from the blowhard POTUS, I don't need to hear it from self-righteous, holier-than-thou citizens as well.

Thank you sir, I concur completely. The OP posed a question that got a lot of attention and detailed answers. It is obviously not true that we missed the point, he just didn't like the answer.
What a B.S.er,! TLFreek, you do not speak for anyone but yourself. And now I'm just going to ignore you.