what if we stop arguing so hard and start looking for a common solution?

[tlfreek]

Go back and re-read my second paragraph again. I identified a number of items that I believe are the real issues. Issues such as putting known felons and the mentally ill out on the streets. Issues like allowing illegal immigrants, particularly those who commit violent crimes to remain here and on the streets. The fact is that the government blew it on this guy - he passed a BGC because they chose to ignore warning after warning about him. That's why I don't want to talk about finding more gun laws - they were already in place, and the system failed. He should never have passed the BGC to begin with. So what good would another law do, when those charged with upholding the law choose to ignore it, or in this case, out of sheer incompetence, fail to stop a killer?

I did - I was asking for ideas not issues - i believe we know what those are.

Nevertheless, if I take what you mention at face value and twist it around into an idea - you are indirectly proposing tougher laws in immigrants and those that are here illegally, not placing known felons on the streets with the mentally ill. if a known felon serves 6 years and fulfills his or her obligation to society - how does your idea work here?

Perhaps the BGC become more centered on mental illness

It's a start.

 

[tlfreek]

The challenge with the current thinking is that to prevent or stop any act of mass violence SOMEBODY has to lose his or her rights.

We either stop anyone from accessing any gun (loss of 2A, right to defend one's self, etc.) or we magically decide who is "crazy" and suspend their civil and human rights (can't buy a gun, can't drive a school bus, can't run with scissors, etc.).

We know banning all guns is not the answer since crazy people will use potato peelers if that's all they can get their hands on. But we also know that "crazy" is in the eye of the beholder and I'm not too keen on our government's definition of anything.

So let's be proactive and create a Crazy List. How does one get on the Crazy List? What is the qualifying criteria for joining that club? Can we nominate people? Once on the list, what rights do you forfeit? Can new rights be revoked when deemed appropriate? How do you appeal your crazy status? Can you ever be deemed "un-crazy"? If so, who determines that? How do we know that you truly are "un-crazy? Wouldn't it be better to just leave you on the list permanently just to be safe? If it saves just one life….

While this seems a bit far fetched (or at least I would have thought it was a few years ago), this is the path we are embarking on. It's either the road to no guns or crazy lists, or both. There's no in between in the current political climate.

Do you really want to entrust your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness to some all-knowing government that can randomly determine you are crazy and therefore are no longer entitled to the rights your neighbor has? Or, is the correct path to evaluate each incident and determine root cause and try to fix the core problems? Or maybe we just keep blaming the gun instead of the idiot? Or it's the village's fault for not raising the idiot correctly? Video games? Social promotion? Add your excuse of the day here…

You cannot legislate morality, decency or any other form of self control. Contrary to popular belief, laws can't prevent crimes they can only hold people accountable after the fact. Short of mind control, there is no "solution" to this problem.

That's what I am finding out - most responses here seem to reinforce other responses.

 

[etrain16]

I did - I was asking for ideas not issues - i believe we know what those are.

Nevertheless, if I take what you mention at face value and twist it around into an idea - you are indirectly proposing tougher laws in immigrants and those that are here illegally, not placing known felons on the streets with the mentally ill. if a known felon serves 6 years and fulfills his or her obligation to society - how does your idea work here?

Perhaps the BGC become more centered on mental illness

It's a start.

I think you misunderstand - those 'issues' are the ideas. Those items are not being adequately addressed in this country, and those 'issues' are the source of many of these problems. Deal with those 'issues' and you begin to actually address the problem.

We don't need more laws. What we have are laws not being enforced, prosecutors and judges advocating early release instead of incarceration. Government officials turning a blind eye to known illegal immigrants. Legislators failing to provide funding and support for prisons and mental health care facilities. The government is failing us based solely on the laws they are already supposed to be enforcing, which is why my idea is to find a way to hold the government accountable for what is a never-ending series of failures. If they did their jobs to begin with, the Orlando shooter would not have gotten a hold of that particular gun. They failed us, any suggestion that the answer must lie in us finding some solution or compromise, simply doesn't sit well with me.

They owe us an apology and the need to get their act together. That is the only solution I see is needed at this time.

So, just so there is no misunderstanding, the idea is this - address those issues, using laws already on the books. Where necessary, provide funding to address things like incarceration and mental health. Stop putting violent criminals and mentally unstable people on the damn streets. Illegal immigrants are already guilty of a crime just by being here, yet we not only fail to deport them, when they commit crimes, they are allowed to stay too - often, let out of prison. What the hell are we doing? I don't see how those 'ideas' are not already being screamed about, considering they are a huge source of these issues. Yet the anti-gun politicians only scream for more gun control.

 

[mjbskwim]

wow - I feel a little on the margins here.

so what I am hearing is there is NOTHING we can do - it's all free will and whatever happens so be it - along with the other pro gun stuff - 'cold dead hands' etc.

Keep in mind my question is broader than religious factions.

You will never....ever... get rid of evil
Part of human nature (not every individual ).
We want what others have. Or more
Im not religous but the seven deadly sins are real.
Then there is mental illness. How will you stop that?
Nuter the crazies? Who all are they?
Some on the left want to believe they can legislate evil away. It wont ever happen

 

[nwslopoke]

When I was a kid in school the government still had those 'Duck and Cover' drills. As if hiding under you desk would save you from a nuke strike. The government still has no new plan 50 years later. It's sad when Americans are told to run, hide a wait for potential slaughter.
The messaging needs to change and we should expect our men to be men. These days we only want to do some thing if we known we will succeed. We're so scared to fail, look bad in public or get labeled X, we qant to sit back and wait for government to respond.
The message should be to defend yourself, your neighborhood, your country. Doesn't matter what color, religion, sex. Be an American. If someone is planning harm against you(us), we have no obligation to sit down and take it.

 

[etrain16]

Another important idea: be prepared, be vigilant and observant, report potential threats if you see them, learn to use a firearm to defend yourself, carry everywhere, as much as possible stay away from targets such as gun free zones, realize YOU are your best chance you have to survive when terror comes calling - because the government will not be there for you.

 

[Member 3687]

There is a way to fix the problem but you will not like it as it is quite radical.

BAN ALL HUMANS AND REMOVE THEM FROM THE EARTH!

I personally do not believe in this but there are groups out there that do.

This would stop:

All murder
Animal cruelty
Pollution/global climate change
And the planet would purify itself in 50 years or so.

Humans are animals and like every other animal in the kingdom we fight for space, food and position. We think we are better because we have more developed brains, but we are not!

Even Bambi will fight to the death for mating rights.

So yes I would like to stop the carnage but stop to think about it every time a president or a king or a leader in general says we need to go to war what make them different than this killer the fact others may agree with them and it's for a good cause.

I served in two branches of the military and was ready to fight and die for my Country, the Constitution and my way of life and I still am so what makes me different from the shooter.

You say you don't want your rights taken away but are you willing to fight and possible die for that belief.

If your spouse, kids or parents are being threatened by death are you willing to step in and defend them even if it means your death?

This is "Free Will" you make many choices based on your life experiences, feelings, beliefs and teachings and there is no way to regulate them as we all see things in a different light even if taught by the same instructor.

This is why we have pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-life, anti-pro life and two sides to ever topic.

Then when you add things like mans emotions of jealousy, fear, rage and the will to survive you will never stop it, slow it down or control it no matter what law is passes or background check is done.

Remember they say there are around 100 million civilian gun owners who own 300 millions guns and 1 trillion rounds of ammo in the US and the only thing stopping said gun owners from taking out anti gun folks is our "Free Will" We want to be honest, and believe in the fact that they have the right to disagree even if we think they are wrong.

Our own founding fathers where considered by many to be radical terrorist and if caught would have been at least hanged but they had a belief and the "Free Will" to think they should be free from British rule.

So to say we can stop it or fix it by training or a new law in my mind is a false since of hope.

What we need to do is learn situational awareness and being prepared and be willing to teach others to do the same.

 

[Stomper]

I have been in 13 different foreign countries, and have seen many a SHOCKING thing...

There will be no peace because evil exists in the world. Although absolutely horrifying, the most heinous form of evil isn't the "butchers in the killing fields" because you will know them by their works. It's the evil, cunning bubblegumers in "high places" who will eat their own that give rise to, and enable the "butchers in the killing fields", the ones who orchestrate it all and never let a crisis go to waste!

They prey upon the FEAR of the masses of the world, pushing them this way and that way, pitting this group against that group, lauding, demonizing, praising, mocking, feeding them, starving them, always posturing to increase their power & wealth.

They are power mad thieves and murderers, and I assure you... they're not crazy. Too many of the world's masses are now dependent on them for their "daily bread", and the promise of "security". It's all theater, it's a maze that leads to a trap that ultimately ends in death. You're intentions are good, but you're swatting at knats and you're out of your league because it's easier to be told than to think.

"Wide is the road unto destruction" and the world's masses are running a one-way marathon upon it.


That is the truth of it.

 

[crstrode]

The answer is simple.

Choose between Buddha and Hitler.

Buddha sees things as they are and accepts. Change and impermanence are constant. Stuff happens

Hitler sees things the way he wants them to be and does not accept reality. Eliminate what you do not agree with. The only stuff is my stuff.

 

[PaulB47]

How do we stop the obvious keep these guys, bad guys, from buying weapons legally?

"We" have no say in the matter. And, your question assumes, amazingly, that the rulers face the same incentives that the peons do; that they want what we want. Of course that is nonsense, and easily disproved: the US government has been in the business of creating terrorists for decades now. They don't want bad guys to be prevented from having weapons.

The answer to your question is as follows:

1) Understand probability - your chances to be killed in one of these attacks. Reality is that you have more chance to be killed by a cop. Don't get upset over flashy events. Don't let the Ministry of Propaganda manipulate you. One way you can understand these things is to look at the methods of propagandists. Start with reading about Edward Bernays.

2) In the extremely improbable case that you are actually, personally caught up in such an event, just shoot the mo'fo.

3) Looking to government for a solution is madness.

 

[Caveman Jim]

wow - I feel a little on the margins here.

so what I am hearing is there is NOTHING we can do - it's all free will and whatever happens so be it - along with the other pro gun stuff - 'cold dead hands' etc.

Keep in mind my question is broader than religious factions.

I'll weigh in on this a little. The warning signs were there on every mass shooting, someone knows a friend, family member or acquaintance that was in a frame of mind & capable of doing harm to others. This is the problem we have and I hate to say it but these people need to rat out these POS crazies before they act.
If anyone in my family exhibits behavior that I deem is going south I'll confront them and take appropriate action. Who wouldn't do this for them? I love and care about every one of them and want them to live a good life but if they need help, that is what they need and deserve.
I've stayed up more that a few nights to console people who thought that the end is the answer and all made it out of that mindset because "I" cared enough to act.
Lets get American back to the way it was before all this progressive socialist agenda driven BS started. Then, and only then will America be as Great as it ever was.

Politicians will continue to control the populous no matter which laws are passed, just look at how many laws that are already in existence!!!! There are already laws against rape, theft and killing (the list goes on) but there is not enough enforcement of "ALL" the laws. When a new administration comes into power they essentially work feverishly to enact an agenda as to which laws they will and will not enforce, say it ain't so, I dare you!!!

 

[PaulB47]

The warning signs were there on every mass shooting

The problems are the false positives. For every guy who went out and killed innocents, there are a thousand who say they are going to kill somebody. How many here have never in their lives said they are going to kill some bastard?

It's not that there are no warning signs, but that there are so many warning signs, from so many people. Can't separate the wheat from the chaff.

Again, this is not a problem to be solved. It's just humans, acting like humans. We're not fixable. Like Captain Mal put it, "A year from now, ten, they'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running; I aim to misbehave."

 

[2A2Dend]

A portion of my Fathers Day was spent compiling and sending a letter to my District Representatives.
I think everyone should do the same, if they have not already.

 

[thorborg]

There is naivety in believing we all want the same things and there is a solution.

From an engineer's perspective of Problem / Solution; there might be some validity to your rant albeit the solution may be as elusive.

Unfortunately this is not the case. The solution being promoted is not for the problem being promoted.

Anyone believing the eradication of an inanimate object will solve or even slow down violence is out to lunch permanently!

Gun control is not about fixing violence. It is not about resolving terrorist threats. I believe this, and is why I feel your post is moot and continues to perpetuate and obscure the real threat to American freedoms and safety.

If guns were never invented you would still have people seeking power and control. Still have evil people doing bad and horrific things to others. Since in this scenario guns have never been invented then the world is now without hope as there is no fix to the problem of violence since guns are now not the solution.

Just the word "Gun Violence" should tell you that the people promoting that new vernacular of terror and the people believing it (who are not necessarily the same) are naive, illiterate, or deceiving for ulterior motives.

Where else do you see the "gun violence" parallel?

Prohibition did not work, cost a lot of lives and spent a lot of tax payer's money.

The war on poverty has not worked likely it's even worse, spent a lot of tax payers money.

The war on drugs has not worked and spent a ton of tax payers monies, cost a lot of lives.

Obama care is not working costing a ton of tax monies and will cost a lot of lives.



Personal responsibility, public awareness/ education, promotion of good morality and ethics, return to the family unit are some ways to reduce violence. Otherwise, your only option to eradicate violence is to eradicate mankind, but there will still be the odd Rogue Bull elephant or rabid dog albeit no one will be around to see it.

 

[erudne]

What is at stake is which world view, which philosophy, will dominate the planet for the next millennia. Will it be the Greco-Roman-Judeo-Christian tradition which gave rise to the greatest liberties and advancements in human history, the culture that has saved a billion lives through medicine, ended slavery, put a man on the moon et al?
Will it be the Statists, the Tyrants, the Slavers, Tortures, Rapists, Murderers? Those are the two choices, there is no middle ground to hinder a decision. Choose life and liberty or choose murder and slavery and be prepared to become a hero or to follow one. The time for hesitation is long past.

 

[Lilhigbee]

Wow!! I have never given so many likes in a thread before. You guys are right-on this topic. One thing only lightly touched on is the fact that the victims had already been deprived of their right to protect themselves by laws from the very mindset that wants to pass more laws.. Had there been a few CCWs there this event may have never made anything more than the local news.
To the OP; you were looking for ideas. Okay, we start by eliminating worthless and detrimental gun laws. Get that handled and we will be on our way to reducing these situations.
As many here have stated, you can't legislate away evil, you just have to deal with it.

 

[crstrode]

A portion of my Fathers Day was spent compiling and sending a letter to my District Representatives.
I think everyone should do the same, if they have not already.

Show us your letter please

 

[Ura-Ki]

I have to blame the entertainment industry with such things as video games, movies, t.v. shows and such! People have an auto disconect with reality and no acountability for there actions! Add in a steady decline in public firearms "sports" where the general public gets to at least watch and maybe limited participation! We have made things too PC for our own good, people are too easy to offend, and add in a progerssive youth culture who are looking for more tech, and less interaction with THE REAL WORLD as a way to escape the conditions they wish they were not in! Finding solutions to our problems isn't easy, too many people are so disconected and disjointed that any "Hope and Change" will offend them, or worse, the idea of suspending some rights to effect changes is un acceptable! The root causes of all of our issues are the utter lack of persona responsability and the trust of Gu'ment to swing in to the rescue! At this stage of our countries evolution, the only way forward is going to be a long, hard, and dark road with a lot of changes, a lot of upsets, and a lot of people having to step up to the challenges and using the system the way our founding fathers intended! Hold Gub'ment accountable, hold out elected officals accountable, hold our LEO responsable, and hold our selves responsable!

 

[308]

Before I speak my mind I will let you know that I am not religious but do reference God.

Yes we all want to stop the madness and stop people from going nuts but guess what we can't.

This last shooter had background checks for his job, background checks to buy guns and was on a watch list but they found nothing so they taken him off it.

What more could have been done short of a chip implanted in all our brains so we all think happy, happy thoughts.

Here is the kicker the reason we cannot change it is because God gave man "Free Will". If you do not believe in God then simply put, we have "Free Thought" and "Free Will".

"Free Will" to do the greatest good or the worst evil or somewhere in between!

Mans "Free Will" allows us to get up in the morning, get dressed and go to work or get up in the morning buy guns and ammo and kill.

"Free Will" gives us the ability to help others through donations, charitable work and acts of kindness.

"Free Will" also gives us the ability to torture animals, bully children and just be rude.

So unless you have a way to change man's heart and mind you will never get rid of evil.

It has been in man since the beginning of time from Cain and Able, David and Goliath and there have been war lords on every continent, country and city throughout time and still are.

Man has and will always be at war with itself so as long as we have "Free Will" this will not change.

By saying all of this I do not want to give the impression that there is no hope because there is always hope because this too is a part of mans "Free Will".

Simple Definition of free will

• 
  
• : the ability to choose how to act
  
• : the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

It's a shame we need to feel like we have to add that disclaimer because you hit the nail on the head and it is 100% completely related to your first sentence.

A guy who I cannot name because it is against the rules said the most important command is to love each other. One of his followers went on later to define what that meant, and what it meant was not a feeling, but rather an purposeful and intentional action on the part of the individual. The definition is as follows:

1. Love is patient
2. Love is kind
3. It does not envy
4. It does not boast
5. It is not proud
6. It does not dishonor others
7. It is not self-seeking
8. It is not easily angered
9. It keeps no record of wrongs
10. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth
11. It always protects, always trusts
12. It always hopes
13. It always perseveres

Now imagine treating everyone with that sort of "Excellence"...there would be no need for gun laws, but as DSAPT9 said, we operate with free will and no one can control the will or the heart of another. So there is the problem...and the big question no one can or will answer is what is to be done?

 

[Ura-Ki]

It's a shame we need to feel like we have to add that disclaimer because you hit the nail on the head and it is 100% completely related to your first sentence.

A guy who I cannot name because it is against the rules said the most important command is to love each other. One of his followers went on later to define what that meant, and what it meant was not a feeling, but rather an purposeful and intentional action on the part of the individual. The definition is as follows:

1. Love is patient
2. Love is kind
3. It does not envy
4. It does not boast
5. It is not proud
6. It does not dishonor others
7. It is not self-seeking
8. It is not easily angered
9. It keeps no record of wrongs
10. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth
11. It always protects, always trusts
12. It always hopes
13. It always perseveres

Now imagine treating everyone with that sort of "Excellence"...there would be no need for gun laws, but as DSAPT9 said, we operate with free will and no one can control the will or the heart of another. So there is the problem...and the big question no one can or will answer is what is to be done?

That is about the best spoken post I have seen here in some time! specially the part about the persons we cannot name! Oppression 101