Vermont man under threat to be imprisoned for personal range on 30 acres!

[Yarome]

Your property rights include the ability to enjoy that property. Everyone has rights, including those want to be able to keep living on their property in the manner they are accustomed. And I don't imagine you feel any different, and would also take steps if the sights, smells or sounds that you associate with home took a major turn for the worse.

And before you accuse me of anything, I'm merely pointing out that the passing of judgement against the neighbors was swift and entirely politically motivated. So let's stop acting like only certain kinds of people act on their politics. This thread is all just politics, not righteous indignation for a wronged man.

Turn for the worse?? That would be rather subjective wouldn't it. If a person chooses to live in a place in close quarters to others... it gives no one person... or collective of persons for that matter... the right to decide how everyone else should use their property so it fits within how they wish to enjoy their own property. Completely unreasonable.

That's why there are specific guidelines and statutes that govern what is acceptable during certain times and places. As such, everyone is subject to exhibit a certain level of tolerance of their neighbors and can not be construed as an "infringement" on your rights to enjoy your own property.

As long as your neighbors are within their rights and city/county statutes... and you decide you don't want to tolerate it... then it's on "you" to pick up your ball and go move somewhere else. The reasonable option though would be... grow a pair and go have a friendly chat with your neighbor to see if some type of compromise can be reached. IE., Only shooting within certain hours of the day and/or for limited durations. Keeping the lines of communication open and being willing to make accommodations is key to happy co-existence.

You'll always think what you want, anyway (you're entitled), but this thread has little to do with politics and everything to do with personal rights. My comment about leftist leanings was regarding the posts by those here suggesting that "rights are rights"... but that guys a jerk... so it's perfectly reasonable to tread all over him.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

the posts by those here suggesting that "rights are rights"... but that guys a jerk..

Oh, well I was one of those so let me clear up my position:

I think that there is a very good chance that guy is much more than "a jerk" and the more information we get the more I believe we will discover that his actions in no way match how it has been portrayed. If I was a betting man I would even bet we will find out some of his actions are criminal and that his neighbors are more than justified in trying to get him shut down
And if that is correct this isn't about "rights" it's about an a-hole being a crappy neighbor

But like the man said, that's just my opinion and I understand time could prove me wrong

ETA, IIRC I didn't say we shouldn't support him, I believe what I said was we should wait to get all the facts before we rush to support him

 

[Diamondback]

History shows that rights denied to any ONE can be denied to ANYone and are swiftly denied to EVERYone.

 

[Yarome]

Oh, well I was one of those so let me clear up my position:

I think that there is a very good chance that guy is much more than "a jerk" and the more information we get the more I believe we will discover that his actions in no way match how it has been portrayed. If I was a betting man I would even bet we will find out some of his actions are criminal and that his neighbors are more than justified in trying to get him shut down
And if that is correct this isn't about "rights" it's about an a-hole being a crappy neighbor

But like the man said, that's just my opinion and I understand time could prove me wrong

ETA, IIRC I didn't say we shouldn't support him, I believe what I said was we should wait to get all the facts before we rush to support him

I guess that's the difference between 2A supporters and "I own a gun and exercise my 2A rights, but...." folks. Any blemish whatsoever, or not, and you automatically assume he's an absolute scumbag not worthy of support or due his constitutional rights... unless it proves out you're wrong and he, in your personal judgement, "deserves them".

A 2A supporter... a firearms owner has the benefit of the doubt and assumed to be law abiding, deserving of support and his full rights... even if it proves out that he's not the most upstanding person. If he has not committed any crime that would nullify his rights... he is just as deserving of them as anyone else.

You don't get to choose which rights are okay for some, but not for others just because you don't personally approve of all of their actions or personal history.

@Diamondback said it very well and worth repeating. "...rights denied to any ONE can be denied to ANYone and are swiftly denied to EVERYone."

 

[RX-79G]

I guess that's the difference between 2A supporters and "I own a gun and exercise my 2A rights, but...." folks. Any blemish whatsoever, or not, and you automatically assume he's an absolute scumbag not worthy of support or due his constitutional rights... unless it proves out you're wrong and he, in your personal judgement, "deserves them".

A 2A supporter... a firearms owner has the benefit of the doubt and assumed to be law abiding, deserving of support and his full rights... even if it proves out that he's not the most upstanding person. If he has not committed any crime that would nullify his rights... he is just as deserving of them as anyone else.

You don't get to choose which rights are okay for some, but not for others just because you don't personally approve of all of their actions or personal history.

@Diamondback said it very well and worth repeating. "...rights denied to any ONE can be denied to ANYone and are swiftly denied to EVERYone."

There's a guy in long island with a large gun collection, and the police are using the evidence that he is a serial killer to take his 2A rights away. Let's rally around Rex Heuermann and show the world what we think of the Long Island DA's (likely Soro's controlled) agenda!

 

[Yarome]

There's a guy in long island with a large gun collection, and the police are using the evidence that he is a serial killer to take his 2A rights away. Let's rally around Rex Heuermann and show the world what we think of the Long Island DA's (likely Soro's controlled) agenda!

OR..... we can just sit around and go unhinged gaslighting.... because it somehow get's our rocks off!



I'll pass... but thanks, anyway.

 

[Diamondback]

I guess that's the difference between 2A supporters and "I own a gun and exercise my 2A rights, but...." folks. Any blemish whatsoever, or not, and you automatically assume he's an absolute scumbag not worthy of support or due his constitutional rights... unless it proves out you're wrong and he, in your personal judgement, "deserves them".

A 2A supporter... a firearms owner has the benefit of the doubt and assumed to be law abiding, deserving of support and his full rights... even if it proves out that he's not the most upstanding person. If he has not committed any crime that would nullify his rights... he is just as deserving of them as anyone else.

You don't get to choose which rights are okay for some, but not for others just because you don't personally approve of all of their actions or personal history.

@Diamondback said it very well and worth repeating. "...rights denied to any ONE can be denied to ANYone and are swiftly denied to EVERYone."

It also helps to consider that in part of my youth I was surrounded by Leftist pols and lawyers who taught me their dirty tricks firsthand alongside their own children who were being groomed to be the next generation of chessmasters in a game where only the most ruthless and sociopathic survive.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Any blemish whatsoever, or not, and you automatically assume he's an absolute scumbag not worthy of support or due his constitutional rights.

Nope, my position is not 'any blemish" it is "A few blemishes are fine, but let's wait to find out if he's an absolute scumbag before we go all in on supporting him" But not even just that, there is an overwhelming sentiment that he did nothing wrong (as in violated no zoning or other established laws) and this is all about his 2a rights being trampled by lefties, and at least as of the time I'm posting this, I don't see that we know if that is true or not.

 

[RX-79G]

OR..... we can just sit around and go unhinged gaslighting.... because it somehow get's our rocks off!



I'll pass... but thanks, anyway.

"Gaslight"?! Oh Yarome, you are so woke. Did you learn about gaslighting in you CRT class?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Stop with the :

Insults...
Back and forth squabbling...
One upmanship....
Getting the last word...
And over all less than excellent comments.

Some folks will not agree with you...
Some people can start an argument in a empty room...

Will your day cease to exist because of them...?

Let it go and move on...or the thread will be closed.
Andy

 

[Yarome]

Nope, my position is not 'any blemish" it is "A few blemishes are fine, but let's wait to find out if he's an absolute scumbag before we go all in on supporting him" But not even just that, there is an overwhelming sentiment that he did nothing wrong (as in violated no zoning or other established laws) and this is all about his 2a rights being trampled by lefties, and at least as of the time I'm posting this, I don't see that we know if that is true or not.

Other than refusing to obey an order to tear down his outbuildings... what is it from the articles that you feel indicates he may have done something else wrong?

The zoning thing seems pretty obvious and not sure what's so confusing. If he was violating zoning laws... there would have have been no need to attempt to try and change them to shut him down... would there? He would have simply been found in violation of current zoning laws and cited/arrested. If he was guilty of illegally discharging a weapon on his property, he would have simply been cited or arrested and never made the news... right?

It seems like kind of a no brainer.

They couldn't do anything about his range so.. exactly as the articles indicated... they went the route of making legislation to infringe on everyones 2A rights and specifically... preventing him from having others on his property. Which it appears it had been his plan to offer training there.

They did cite him for the outbuildings that he constructed without building permits. That's on him... but I guess I fail to see what it is you're referring to that implies he's a class A scumbag... until proven otherwise... and deserves no support from the 2A community.

I guess that's where the "overwhelming sentiment that he did nothing wrong" comes from. From what we do know... other than the outbuildings and refusing to tear them down... criminal or firearm related... there doesn't appear to be any indication whatsoever that he violated any other local statutes or laws.

I understand though. You've got your tin hat on and betting somethings going to creep out from under the rug and confirm your personal suspicions about his character... right? You're entitled.

Pardon me if I believe that all within the 2A community deserve support... unless proven otherwise. That's "my" default... vs... the "prove your worthy first" approach.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Other than refusing to obey an order to tear down his outbuildings... what is it from the articles that you feel indicates he may have done something else wrong?

The zoning thing seems pretty obvious and not sure how that doesn't make sense to you. If he was violating zoning laws... there would have have been no need to attempt to try and change them to shut him down... would there? He would have simply been found in violation of current zoning laws and cited/arrested. If he was guilty of illegally discharging a weapon on his property, he would have simply been cited or arrested and never made the news... right?

It seems like kind of a no brainer.

They couldn't do anything about his range so.. exactly as the articles indicated... they went the route of making legislation to infringe on everyones 2A rights and specifically... preventing him from having others on his property. Which it appears it had been his plan to offer training there.

They did cite him for the outbuildings that he constructed without building permits. That's on him... but I guess I fail to see what it is you're referring to that implies he's a class A scumbag... until proven otherwise... and deserves no support from the 2A community.

I guess that's where the "overwhelming sentiment that he did nothing wrong" comes from. From what we do know... other than the outbuildings and refusing to tear them down... criminal or firearm related... there doesn't appear to be any indication whatsoever that he violated any other local statutes or laws.

I understand though. You've got your tin hat on and betting somethings going to creep out from under the rug and confirm your personal suspicions about his character... right? You're entitled(?)

Pardon me if I believe that all within the 2A community deserve support... unless proven otherwise. That's "my" default... vs... the "prove your worthy first" approach.

Had some time to look into this a bit more, and found that;
1: There are lots news articles covering this going back to the first of the year, so it's not like "no one is talking about this"
2: It wasn't a private range like the WGL guy said in his video, it was a commercial shooting facility complete with classrooms, range officers and training schedules
3: He built without proper permits in violation of zoning laws, and yes, that includes local environmental zoning laws
4: After a court order to remove the buildings and return the land to its original condition ( a fairly common remedy for land use / zoning issues) he refused to comply with the court order and that is what got him arrested

So making this about his 2a right being violated and is a huge reach, this is a zoning / land use court issue and I'm confused by "other than the outbuildings and refusing to tear them down... criminal or firearm related... there doesn't appear to be any indication whatsoever that he violated any other local statutes or laws" Why are you looking for stuff he DIDN'T do wrong when you know what he DID do wrong, which by itself is enough to land him in jail?

And no, it's not that I require a "prove your worthy first" approach, it's that I kind of do require that it actually be about a 2a violation and not, as is very clear at this point, a non 2a land use / zoning / court order issue. But beyond that, I never said that I thought we was " a class A scumbag" I said "more than a jerk" and for that he does appear to be having some issues with the law unrelated to the commercial range he legally built


Also the amount of misinformation in the WGL guy's video is about par for the course with him, kind of surprised people still turn to him as a reliable source of information

 

[Andy54Hawken]

@Yarome and @VinnieBoomBah
Thank you both for discussing while disagreeing.
Andy

 

[Yarome]

3: He built without proper permits in violation of zoning laws, and yes, that includes local environmental zoning laws
4: After a court order to remove the buildings and return the land to its original condition ( a fairly common remedy for land use / zoning issues) he refused to comply with the court order and that is what got him arrested

So making this about his 2a right being violated and is a huge reach,...

Also the amount of misinformation in the WGL guy's video is about par for the course with him, kind of surprised people still turn to him as a reliable source of information

3. Building without a permit is not a zoning issue. It's a permitting issue. Separate animals. If it "had" been a zoning issue then it never would have been necessary for anyone to seek to change the land usage zoning classification to shut him down. They simply could/would have.

I don't know where his property is or what land usage statues are in place, but it's pretty obvious that he was not afoul of any zoning issues.

4. Agreed. That appears to be the crux of his legal troubles. I never said any different, but again... that still doesn't indicate a land use or zoning issue. Building without a permit... more typical is to have to pay some very serious fines and penalties... but if the powers that be want to be jerks about it... returning the land to it's original condition is not an uncommon order.

It's really not a reach on the 2A front. They used his case and their desire to shut him down to pass anti-2A legislation. Many articles specifically stated that... which again... wouldn't have been necessary had it been a simple zoning issue. Not that they didn't want to pass that turd anyway, but his case appeared to be the catalyst and directly impacts his ability to use his land as he originally intended.

If it was someone else getting shut down because of that new law... we would be talking about how they were getting hosed.

After all... this is a firearm forum... not a city ordinance, building permits or other forum... so we "try" to concentrate on the firearm related issues.

I still stand by my statement, though. At this time, It does not appear that he has done anything that would warrant him being denied his 2A rights. The new legislation is still infringing on his rights... as well as every other citizen within their state. As far as the 2A and his rights go.... I still believe he deserves the 2A communities support.

 

[Yarome]

Also the amount of misinformation in the WGL guy's video is about par for the course with him, kind of surprised people still turn to him as a reliable source of information

OH yeah. I wouldn't know. I didn't watch his YT... I read the articles. Although, like everyone... he's not perfect... but I see many that simply fail to actually listen to what he's "actually" saying and try to put their own spin on it just to have something to spout off about "clickbait" again.

Don't like him.... don't WATCH him! Do your own due diligence. None of those YT'ers present any info that isn't publicly available... or soon will be.

Just sayin....

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

present any info that isn't publicly available

It's not that the info isn't publicly available, it's that it's wrong

 

[Diamondback]

The American Way is "innocent until proven guilty." The SOVIET way was "make a crime to fit the man." The point here is, no matter how vile a person may be he should be given the same presumptions and protections you would want for yourself if some one decided to turn the State to going Full Metal Jackboot on YOU.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

The American Way is "innocent until proven guilty." The SOVIET way was "make a crime to fit the man." The point here is, no matter how vile a person may be he should be given the same presumptions and protections you would want for yourself if some one decided to turn the State to going Full Metal Jackboot on YOU.

100% agree, but the facts of this case appear to be that he was given the same presumptions and protections and he lost in court on zoning and land use issues and he refused to abide by the court order so he was jailed.

 

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