Unfortunate cartridge offerings ...

[Mike_M57]

I met a reloader once that, just for a fun reloading bench display piece, managed to neck up a .22 WMR case to just barely accept a .45 caliber bullet.

 

[mhayd93]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, let me just remind some of you about a lost-cause cartridge that I actually fired around 25 years ago. Here it be's -

View attachment 1177905

It's called the .224 BOZ, it was British, and this ultra-rare empty cased version bears the headstamp to prove it, along with the brand-name CDS [?]

Using the 55gr .224 bullet of the-then standard 5.56x45 NATO cartridge, it was made for use in a top-slide and barrel conversion for any Browning GP35 or Colt M1911, CZ75 and SIG226. Although the main Army handgun at that time was still the GP35, my part of the Army had the SIG P226 and 8. The aim was to have an armour-piercing bullet in a handgun, before that famous 5.7mm FN version came out.

In action it was ferocious, especially as it had the annoying habit of going full-auto, in a standard handgun - it almost made the Mac10 sound like a muzzleloader. You could easily find all thirty cases in the air at once...

Read what Wiki has to say...

The .224 Boz cartridge was developed in the late 1990s, designed as a candidate replacement cartridge for adoption as the standardized NATO ("STANAG") Personal defense weapon PDW round, originally solicited to replace the longstanding NATO standard (STANAG) 9×19mm Parabellum. It was going to be the British entry, to be evaluated alongside the Belgian FN 5.7x28mm and the German HK_4.6×30mm armor-piercing cartridges. The solicitation would also seek to find, test and standardize on a PDW cartridge capable of, at the minimum, defeating the Collaborative Research Into Small Arms Technology (CRISAT) body armour of the time.

Design

The .224 Boz began as a 10mm Auto case necked down to .223 in (5.7 mm). Original trials were successful, with this round firing a 50 gr (3.2 g) projectile chronographed at over 2,500 ft/s (760 m/s). During development a version based upon the 9x19 Parabellum case was also evaluated, which carried the significant advantage of being able to be utilized in pre-existing NATO standard 9x19 Parabellum caliber firearms by means of a relatively cheap barrel and caliber swap. The 22 TCM takes advantage of this same concept in its sub-variant, the 22 TCM 9R.

This is the first I've heard of this round, and on paper, it looks so much more desirable from a logistics standpoint than the 5.7! I'm wondering if there were any specific issues that kept it from taking off (aside from unintentional full auto)??

Thanks for sharing!

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I always thought the Winchester short magnum/super short magnums looked cool.

Just way too many cartridges ina lot of cases imo. People buy them when they first come out cuz it's something new. Then they find that the similar cartridge that's been around for a long time is about as good and is cheaper and more available.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I found the plastic shot shells I was thinking of. Activ was the name. Quick google shows it had a metal disc inside the plastic for strength for extraction. Was made in West Virginia back in the day and then they sold the tooling to South America. They are still made today in South America but no longer imported to the US.

They were purple color I think and every time as kids we went to a shooting spot we would see those purple shells and gather them all up and bring them home for reloading. They didn't rust like the other shells that were laying around.

 

[orygun]

All of the Ruger Compact Magnums. Great cartridges, but redundant.

I've been down the Ackley road. Yeah, with the 30-06 it's not considered to be a big improvement, but with as close as I can get to 300 Win Mag velocities, I wouldn't call it a complete waste. I did find that I could EASILY make 100fps more than normal 30-06 velocities with the best ever groupings from that rifle. I can make that a 200fps change at the expense of accuracy.

The 450 Marlin is what I call a "Lawyer's Cartridge". It was a way to duplicate the healthier loads of custom 45-70 without the potential for the cartridge not ending up in the wrong rifle. It was short enough to fit into a typical belted magnum chamber so it used a belt that protruded deeper into the chamber to keep that from happening.

One fantastic cartridge introduced after WWII is the 7mm-08. I spose the 7x57 guys will scream it's unneeded, but it's available in rifles that fit smaller shooters and is very capable in the field.

 

[DeanMk]

One cartridge I haven't seen mentioned yet is the old 6x47.
This is NOT the Lapua round.
Way back when, someone took a .222 Remington Magnum case, necked it up to 6mm and found it was an excellent target shooting cartridge.
Not sure if any of the ammo maker ever loaded it. I've only ever known it as a wildcat, but in the 70's and part of the 80's, it was the darling of the paper punching crowd.
The advent of the PPC cartridges finally spelled its demise and I rarely ever hear it mentioned anymore.

 

[VanceInWA]

One fantastic cartridge introduced after WWII is the 7mm-08. I spose the 7x57 guys will scream it's unneeded, but it's available in rifles that fit smaller shooters and is very capable in the field.

Absolutely correct. 7mm-08 was perfect as my daughter's first deer hunting cartridge, and she still loves it.

 

[DeanMk]

My dad wanted me to get a 7mm-08 back when the Model 7 first came out, but I wasn't hunting as much at that time, so I passed.
Boy, I wish I could go back and reverse that decision now!

 

[Mike_M57]

I found the plastic shot shells I was thinking of. Activ was the name. Quick google shows it had a metal disc inside the plastic for strength for extraction. Was made in West Virginia back in the day and then they sold the tooling to South America. They are still made today in South America but no longer imported to the US.

They were purple color I think and every time as kids we went to a shooting spot we would see those purple shells and gather them all up and bring them home for reloading. They didn't rust like the other shells that were laying around.
View attachment 1178643
View attachment 1178644

I used to shoot Activ shells in my 20ga guns all the time. I loved them for reloading. I was getting 15+ reloads per shell and they'd shoot great every time. Killed SO many quail and clay birds with those shells.

I may still have a few laying around somewhere.

 

[CountryGent]

The .50 Action Express, on the other hand, did far better.

True that. And I would go so far as to say that the .50Æ is an underrated cartridge. Or at least there aren't enough guns in said. There is the Desert Eagle (had one in .44 Magnum; neat, but didn't hang on to it), the Magnum Research (had one in .50Æ; also neat, but was headed in another direction), and beyond that they are either defunct (e.g., LAR Grizzly) or purely a custom proposition. I'd love a Model 29 in said and would settle on a Redhawk in the Fifty. Or a SBR carbine so chambered. But I digress.

 

[po18guy]

Rimless are enough of a problem in revolvers. A rebated rim would require moon clips. Hamilton Bowen may have done one, or something similar.

 

[DeanMk]

...just thought of another one you never hear about anymore....8mm-06.
Anyone old enough to know about that one?
It's like the .32 Winchester Special concept; shot out, or errorded '06 barrels bored to 8mm (which is almost .32 cal), then the cartridge is necked up to accept the proper bullet.
Used to be quite the popular wildcat. So much so, that people would have perfectly good .30 cal barrels bored out to accept the cartridge.

 

[sobo]

.It's like the .32 Winchester Special concept; shot out, or errorded '06 barrels bored to 8mm (which is almost .32 cal), then the cartridge is necked up to accept the proper bullet.
Used to be quite the popular wildcat. So much so, that people would have perfectly good .30 cal barrels bored out to accept the cartridge.

Just happen to have one of them gunz...
Behold the Winchester 1894 in .32 Win Special! This particular example was the Grand Sobo's first deer rifle, which he purchased with his own hard-earned money in 1943, at the tender age of 13, whilst WWII raged and two of his older brothers were heavily engaged within it. This piece is in my perpetual care now, living its new life as a safe queen except for the very occasional range trip. The Grand Sobo enquires about it from time to time, and I assure him it still survives in the family...

 

[CountryGent]

I found the plastic shot shells I was thinking of. Activ was the name. Quick google shows it had a metal disc inside the plastic for strength for extraction. Was made in West Virginia back in the day and then they sold the tooling to South America. They are still made today in South America but no longer imported to the US.

They were purple color I think and every time as kids we went to a shooting spot we would see those purple shells and gather them all up and bring them home for reloading. They didn't rust like the other shells that were laying around.
View attachment 1178643
View attachment 1178644

Wow, I haven't seen those in a long ways. (I, vaguely, recall they sold to an Argentinian firm, as mentioned.)

 

[DeanMk]

Just happen to have one of them gunz...
Behold the Winchester 1894 in .32 Win Special! This particular example was the Grand Sobo's first deer rifle, which he purchased with his own hard-earned money in 1943, at the tender age of 13, whilst WWII raged and two of his older brothers were heavily engaged within it. This piece is in my perpetual care now, living its new life as a safe queen except for the very occasional range trip. The Grand Sobo enquires about it from time to time, and I assure him it still survives in the family...

View attachment 1179630

You realize I was referring to the old 8mm-06 wildcat in that post, right?
The .32 comment was just an example.

 

[Mikej]

Just happen to have one of them gunz...
Behold the Winchester 1894 in .32 Win Special! This particular example was the Grand Sobo's first deer rifle, which he purchased with his own hard-earned money in 1943, at the tender age of 13, whilst WWII raged and two of his older brothers were heavily engaged within it. This piece is in my perpetual care now, living its new life as a safe queen except for the very occasional range trip. The Grand Sobo enquires about it from time to time, and I assure him it still survives in the family...

View attachment 1179630

From what I understand, that .32 Special was an unfortunate cartridge it's self. (maybe been mentioned already?) Also learned recently that Winchester stopped production of the model 94 in 1943.

Have you dated, down to the month, Grand Dad's rifle?

 

[DeanMk]

From what I understand, that .32 Special was an unfortunate cartridge it's self. (maybe been mentioned already?) Also learned recently that Winchester stopped production of the model 94 in 1943.

Have you dated, down to the month, Grand Dad's rifle?

I've been told that online dating guides for Winchester firearms are inaccurate because the lists were made up with a lot of "Kentucky Windage".
The true Winchester records are kept at the Buffalo bill museum in Cody Wyoming, but the list, as seen online, appears pretty vague.
Probably best to call them and inquire about your own situation.

 

[Mikej]

I've been told that online dating guides for Winchester firearms are inaccurate because the lists were made up with a lot of "Kentucky Windage".
The true Winchester records are kept at the Buffalo bill museum in Cody Wyoming, but the list, as seen online, appears pretty vague.
Probably best to call them and inquire about your own situation.

I've done a bit of reading on the subject. What your saying is addressed on this site... https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/model-94-serial-numbers/
Cruising around there I came to a conclusion that my recent purchase was manufactured in late December '41 or early January '42. More than likely Jan '42. Without a monthly tally of the numbers made no way to know for sure.

This Bert H. guy appears to be pretty knowledgeable on the subject. Of course well all know that it's possible that a manufacture date, and delivery date, can be quite a ways a part.

 

[DeanMk]

....I wonder if I've met him before.....hmmm......FWIW, I was told about the inaccuracies at The Gun Values board.

 

[Mikej]

....I wonder if I've met him before.....hmmm......FWIW, I was told about the inaccuracies at The Gun Values board.

Is he local? Or are you just that well traveled?